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cavear_and_cigarettes
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Post Translating "that" into Quenya [*pout pout*]
on: October 01, 2004 04:47
ookay, this may seem like a slight temper tantrum, but this was my first attempt at translating something, and I'd like to think it's alright: it was for lindele's request about Gandalf's quote. it came a little late, and I guess the discerning public didn't feel inclined to comment. so now I'm posting it for comments and crits.
I personally had a problem with all the "compel" stuff, because I thought he meant all we physically are able to control, when he said all we have to decide. but I like the quote too, and I'm not asking lindele to change her version in her signature, but I might want to add this one to mine.

ilya polivë/lertalvë/lavilvë turë ná mana carilvë i lúnen antainalvë

it means: all we are able/free/allowed (or granted) to control is what we do with the time (that is) given to us.

??? thanks

[Edited on 25/10/2004 by Malinornë]
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translating "that" into Quenya [*pout pout*]
on: October 01, 2004 08:33
There are likely to be as many interpretations of a text as there are people translating it

Here are some comments and suggestions to your version:
- I'd like to add "sa" in the beginning... "ilya sa polilvë" (all *that* we can...")
- "what" here doesn't seem to be acting as a "question word", so I believe a relative pronoun would be better... use "ya" or "i" according to personal preference (I like "ya", as "i" might be confused with the definite article)
- the passive participle, though derived from a verb, is an adjectival word, so we can't add pronominal verb endings to it. Instead, I'd use an independent pronoun, in this case "men" (dative "to us").

I'm sure some of our friends here have other suggestions
dirk_math
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Post RE: Translating "that" into Quenya [*pout pout*]
on: October 02, 2004 05:46
Indeed I have to say more:

The translation of 'that' into Quenya:
English has 5 different meanings cramped into one word 'that', but in Quenya they are all different:

1. Demonstrative pronoun: 'that book'
In Quenya this becomes tana and this word is always put behind the noun: parma tana.


2. Relative pronoun: 'the man that I see, eats bread'
The relative pronoun is used to join 2 sentences with a common word, here 'the man eats bread' and 'I see the man'.
In this case we mostly use ya: I nér ya cénan, máta massa.
But when this common word is a person and subject of both sentences we use i: 'the man that eats bread, is here':
I nér i máta massa, ná sinomë. This i cannot be confused with the article i as it is in this meaning always put in front of a verb.


3. In some sentences 'that' is put before 'which' or 'what', in that case it is also translated by ya.
E.g. 'that what I see, is a book': ya cénan, ná parma.
But in English is the word 'that' in these sentences mostly omitted: 'what I see, is a book'.
So in your sentence: 'is what we do' means in fact 'is that what we do' so it should indeed be translated by ná ya cáralve.

Note: in sentences like these about persons we again use i:
the one that I see, is a soldier: i cénan, ná ohtar.
But again this 'that' is mostly omitted and it cannot be confused with the article, because it is once again in front of a verb.


4. To start the reported speech (aka indirect speech) one can also use 'that', and this case is translated by sa:
E.g. 'he says that he is a king': Quetis sa nas aran.
But again this 'that' is in English frequently omitted: 'he says he is king'.
That is why in English it is sometimes difficult to recognize these.


5. As a subject of the sentence, in this case it is translated by ta:
E.g. 'that is good': ta ná mára.

So I hope this helps to avoid the confusion about 'that'.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translating "that" into Quenya [*pout pout*]
on: October 02, 2004 08:58
Very nice summary of "that"

I'd just like to add that we can't say for sure that relative "that" is translated "i" whenever it refers to a person. If my memory doesn't deceive me, HKF had it like this in the first version of his course, but then changed it.

And, you're of course correct that relative "i" shouldn't be confused with "the", but as I've seen it happen, I still personally prefer "ya"
cavear_and_cigarettes
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Post RE: Translating "that" into Quenya [*pout pout*]
on: October 05, 2004 07:05
okay, so this is what I've got:

ilya sa polivë/lertalvë/lavilvë turë ná ya carilvë i lúnen antaina men

good good?

thanks.

*goes to copy the lecture on "that"*
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