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Aino
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Post A Deadly Combat
on: October 28, 2004 09:32
Hello! This is my first serious attempt at a translation from English into Sindarin (I've tried to translate other things before but it was just to practice my grammar, so I wasn't very careful when choosing words etc.). I would be very grateful if someone could have a look at it and tell me what they think about it.

The passage I chose is taken from The Fall Of Gondolin (from the Lost Tales) and describes the fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog (I love this piece of Elven history!). May Professor Tolkien forgive me!


Now there was a deadly combat upon that high rock above the folk; and these, pressed behind and hindered ahead, were grown so close that well nigh all could see, yet it was over ere Glorfindel's men could leap to his side. The ardour of Glorfindel drave that Balrog from point to point, and his mail fended him from its whip and claw. Now had he beaten a heavy swinge upon its iron helm, now hewn off the creature's whip-arm at the elbow. Then sprang the Balrog in the torment of his pain and fear full at Glorfindel, who stabbed like a dart of a snake; but he found only a shoulder, and was grappled, and they swayed to a fall upon the crag-top. Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling clutched Glorfindel's yellow locks beneath his cap, and those twain fell into the abyss.


Ennas breithant maeth dhelu erin gond daur de or 'waith;
There broke out (a) fight deadly on the rock high that above people;

a sin, herthennin adel a nef gleinennin,
and these, urged on behind and on this side enclosed,

anglenner a pain mae tirianner, dân as toll na vethed
approached and all well saw, but it came to an end

nuin maethyr Glorfindel cemmir na den. I 'orn Glorfindel
before the warriors of Glorfindel leapt by him. The valour of Glorfindel

farn i Valrog de o nass na nass, ah i champ angren
hunted the Balrog that from point to point, and the mail (garment of iron)

dín beriant den uin lath a gamp hín.
his protected him from the whip and claw its.

E si dringant dhram long am i thôl angren hín,
He now beat (a) blow heavy upon the helm of iron its,

si dram i lathranc edh-raug ben enedh.
now hewed the whip-arm of the demon in the middle.

Tuiant i Valrog ben mbaul en-naeg ah achas hín
Sprang the Balrog in the torment of the pain and fear its

pant na 'Lorfindel, i eithant bragol sui lhûg; dân e harnant
full at Glorfindel, who stabbed sudden as a snake; but he wounded

ranc erui, ah e mammen, a tellir na dhant
(an) arm alone, and he (was) seized, and (they) came to (a) fall

erin gaw e-gond. I gam chair Glorfindel torthant higil,
on the top of the rock. The hand left of Glorfindel wielded (a) dagger,

a hen e nastant eithol i thraw e-Balrog na i nîf în
and this he thrust stabbing the body of the Balrog by the face his

(an i raug de orchal edaid be den); ah as cann, a dannant
(for the demon that (was) tall double as him); and it cried out, and fell

dan uin gond, a dannol gant i finnel valthen Glorfindel
back from the rock, and falling caught the hair golden (of) Glorfindel

nuin thôl dín, ah in thâd di danner dad i iâ.
under the helm his, and the two those fell down the abyss.


Notes:
- his mail: I couldn't find a word for "mail", I know my translation sounds like "canned Glorfindel", but what can I do... Glorfindel's armour was said to be golden, actually, but I don't think this means it was made of gold, perhaps it was gilded;
- the torment of his pain: Tolkien seems to use "he" when referring to Glorfindel and "it" when referring to the Balrog, except here (unless I misunderstood), so here I changed "his" into "its";
- yellow locks: well, Tolkien wrote "yellow", so I should use _malen_, but I couldn't resist the temptation of "golden hair"... :love: Besides, perhaps _laws_ is better than _finnel_, but I wasn't sure about the plural (_loes_?)

Any comment is welcome!

Aino
Fíriel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 15, 2004 06:41
Hello Aino... in the next few days I'll try to give some suggestions, so please don't be discouraged if you have to wait a while longer.
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 16, 2004 02:54
Thank you Fíriel!
Ailinel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 16, 2004 03:46
Hello Aino!

I like your translation very much! Before giving any suggestions I would like to ask a question, regarding the pronouns. As we all know there are few attested examples, but of course you would need reconstrcted ones in almost any translation of some length. I have noticed that you are applying some pronouns which I do not know. (Probably we are relying on different experts.) For example, I don't know _de_ (that) and could not find it anywhere. So, could you please give your sources concerning pronouns. I don't doubt that at the present state of knowledge many different sets are valid, but it's interesting to understand the theory. Otherwise my suggestions would seem rather ill-founded.

*Ailinel
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 16, 2004 10:27
Hello Ailinel! Thank you for reading my translation!

I studied Sindarin using Gildor Inglorion (Aaron Shaw)'s course available here at CoE, so I use the reconstructions for pronouns and adjectives which are given in his lessons:

http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Workbook&file=workbook&dp=workbook

(Unfortunately I am no expert in linguistics and I can't tell exactly how these words were deduced from Tolkien's writings).

So, for example, I used _te_ for "that", and it gets lenited to _de_ because most times it is an adjective (as in "that high rock" in the first line)... at least I thought that's how things should work!

Actually, I'm not sure about using the proposed reconstructions for demonstrative adjectives (this,these,that,those) when they are used as pronouns (like "these" in the second line), but I didn't know of any other ways of translating them...
Ailinel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 18, 2004 06:12
Hello Aino, these are my thoughts on the first sentence of your translation. I'm sorry that it took me so long. I have been reading Gildor Inglorion's lessons on pronouns and demonstrative adjectives, and though I'm not certain whether he still holds them to be valid, I don't want to discuss it here.



Now there was a deadly combat upon that high rock above the folk; and these, pressed behind and hindered ahead, were grown so close that well nigh all could see, yet it was over ere Glorfindel's men could leap to his side.

Ennas breithant maeth dhelu erin gond daur de or 'waith;
There broke out (a) fight deadly on the rock high that above people;

a sin, herthennin adel a nef gleinennin,
and these, urged on behind and on this side enclosed,

anglenner a pain mae tirianner, dân as toll na vethed
approached and all well saw, but it came to an end

nuin maethyr Glorfindel cemmir na den.
before the warriors of Glorfindel leapt by him.





2nd line: _adel_ and _nef_ are prepositions: "behind" and "on this side of" *something*. So I feel uncertain whether they could be used adverbially.

3rd line: I think it should be _dan_ with short _a_.

4th line: _nuin_ (_nu_ + article) takes the meaning "under the". Unfortunately there is no word "before", so you would probably have to reformulate this part.

*Ailinel
Malinornë
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 20, 2004 08:31
Hello Aino! That wasn't an easy thing to choose for a translation! I have some ideas for the second and third sentence (and will add more later):

The ardour of Glorfindel drave that Balrog from point to point,
I 'orn Glorfindel farn i Valrog de o nass na nass,
The valour of Glorfindel hunted the Balrog that from point to point,
>>> As we don't have an attested word for "that" and it doesn't seem crucial in this sentence, I'd just drop it. Just "the Balrog" is clear enough from the context, I think
Perhaps "gorf" (impetus) instead of "gorn"? A matter of taste, of course!

now hewn off the creature's whip-arm at the elbow.
si dram i lathranc edh-raug ben enedh.
now hewed the whip-arm of the demon in the middle.
>>> "ben"(according to the, like the) doesn't seem to fit very well, but maybe "vi"(in) or "bo"(on)

Then sprang the Balrog in the torment of his pain and fear full
Tuiant i Valrog ben mbaul en-naeg ah achas hín pant
Sprang the Balrog in the torment of the pain and fear its full
>>> "tuia-" is "spring" in the sense "sprout", so I'd use "camp" (leapt, jumped) instead.
I suggest "an" (for) instead of "ben" here, and would simplify "fear full" to just "fear". I'd also use "în" for his/its, as it refers back to the subject. "Camp i Valrog am mbaul-en-naeg în ah achas în" (Leapt the Balrog for the torment of its pain and its fear).

and they swayed to a fall upon the crag-top.
a tellir na dhant erin gaw e-gond.
and (they) came to (a) fall on the top of the rock.
>>> perhaps just "danner" (they fell)…"come to a fall" sounds like a very English construction to me
I'd use "bo" for "on" (as "erin" might be for time references only)

and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face
a hen e nastant eithol i thraw e-Balrog na i nîf în
and this he thrust stabbing the body of the Balrog by the face his
>>> I think we might need a noun in front of "sen", as it seems to work like an adjective rather than a pronoun, so I'd just repeat "higil" there.

(for that demon was double his stature);
(an i raug de orchal edaid be den);
(for the demon that (was) tall double as him);
>>>I'm unsure about the construction with "double" and fear it might rather be interpreted "double like him", so I'd choose a simpler path here and say "tall as two elves"

Ok, that's all from me, and I hope this was of use to you

[Edited on 20/11/2004 by Malinornë]
Fíriel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 21, 2004 01:59
Just a few comments of my own; the others have already done a very good job of picking over it.

2nd line: _adel_ and _nef_ are prepositions: "behind" and "on this side of" *something*. So I feel uncertain whether they could be used adverbially.


These are listed as adverbs on Derdzinski's Summary of Sindarin Grammar, although I don't know why he chooses to do so.

4th line: _nuin_ (_nu_ + article) takes the meaning "under the". Unfortunately there is no word "before", so you would probably have to reformulate this part.


Nu as 'before' is a Neo-Sindarin formulation. It might feature in the LOTR movies, I can't remember exactly...

(for that demon was double his stature);
(an i raug de orchal edaid be den);
(for the demon that (was) tall double as him);
>>>I'm unsure about the construction with "double" and fear it might rather be interpreted "double like him", so I'd choose a simpler path here and say "tall as two elves"


There's also the tentative construction of '{more} tall than him'; if we use Naneth's suggestion of athan for 'than', perhaps tond i raug athan den, literally 'tall is the demon beyond him'.

dan uin gond, a dannol gant i finnel valthen Glorfindel
back from the rock, and falling caught the hair golden (of) Glorfindel


I'm just amused by 'caught the golden hair of Goldenhair', for that's what Glorfindel's name _roughly_ translates to. Anyway, dan is a preposition, whereas an adverb needs to be used here. Unfortunately, ad doesn't have the intended meaning, but what about dad, 'down'?

nuin thôl dín, ah in thâd di danner dad i iâ.
under the helm his, and the two those fell down the abyss.


Just my opinion (of course), but translating it as 'fell into the abyss' could work by using na (because it indicates motion)... Also, did you mean to say i thâd here? i thâd di danner na i iâ?
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 22, 2004 06:56
Thank you very much, Ailinel, Fíriel and Malinornë, for your suggestions!
I'm sorry it took me so long to answer, I was busy during the weekend.

So, it seems that I'm having some trouble with prepositions... anyway your explanations are very helpful.


4th line: _nuin_ (_nu_ + article) takes the meaning "under the". Unfortunately there is no word "before", so you would probably have to reformulate this part.


Nu as 'before' is a Neo-Sindarin formulation. It might feature in the LOTR movies, I can't remember exactly...


Yes, I found _nu_ as ''before" in the Neo-Sindarin part of Dragonflame. I've been thinking about reformulating the sentence, but I can't come up with any satisfactory alternative... I'll tell you if I have an idea.


I'm just amused by 'caught the golden hair of Goldenhair', for that's what Glorfindel's name _roughly_ translates to.


ok, perhaps "yellow hair" is better...


Also, did you mean to say i thâd here? i thâd di danner na i iâ?


I actually thought that _in_ was needed because it's plural. Is that wrong?
Aelgas
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 22, 2004 08:21
I think that, fortunately, Fíriel must have alarm bells that ring whenever anyone employs nasal mutation incorrectly .

Plural article 'in' causes nasal mutation and drops the 'n' before 'th'.

Fíriel picked up the same mistake in my translation of 'Sea Fever'.

Heh, it's much easier to spot these things in other peoples' work than it is one's own, but I must say, Fíriel and Malinornë are very thorough.
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 22, 2004 11:45
Plural article 'in' causes nasal mutation and drops the 'n' before 'th'.


oh, yes, you're right Aelgas, I had forgotten, how silly of me! Thank you for pointing that out!


Heh, it's much easier to spot these things in other peoples' work than it is one's own, but I must say, Fíriel and Malinornë are very thorough.


Yes, they are, and I'm thankful for that!
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 26, 2004 05:28
I've tried to change the sentence containing "before", but I'm not sure it works. Do you think that _ú-gernir cabed _ is correct? or should _cabed_ be lenited?

I also thought I could drop the prepositions/adverbs in the second line... it seems to make sense, more or less...

So this is the new version!


Ennas breithant maeth dhelu erin gond daur de or 'waith;
There broke out (a) fight deadly on the rock high that above people;

a sin, herthennin a gleinennin,
and these, urged on and enclosed,

anglenner a pain mae tirianner, dan as toll
approached and all well saw, but it came

na vethed vragol a maethyr Glorfindel ú-gernir cabed na den.
to a sudden end and the warriors of Glorfindel couldn't leap by him.

nuin maethyr Glorfindel cemmir na den. I 'orf Glorfindel
before the warriors of Glorfindel leapt by him. The impetus of Glorfindel

farn i Valrog o nass na nass, ah i champ angren
hunted the Balrog from point to point, and the mail (garment of iron)

dín beriant den uin lath a gamp hín.
his protected him from the whip and claw its.

E si dringant dhram long am i thôl angren hín,
He now beat (a) blow heavy upon the helm of iron its,

si dram i lathranc edh-raug vi enedh.
now hewed the whip-arm of the demon in the middle.

Camp i Valrog am mbaul en-naeg ah achas în
Sprang the Balrog in the torment of the pain and fear its

na 'Lorfindel, i eithant bragol sui lhûg; dân e harnant
at Glorfindel, who stabbed sudden as a snake; but he wounded

ranc erui, ah e mammen, a danner
(an) arm alone, and he (was) seized, and (they) fell

bo caw e-gond. I gam chair Glorfindel torthant higil,
on the top of the rock. The hand left of Glorfindel wielded (a) dagger,

a higil hen e nastant eithol i thraw e-Balrog na i nîf în
and this he thrust stabbing the body of the Balrog by the face his

(an tond i raug athan den); ah as cann, a dannant
(for tall (was) the demon beyond him); and it cried out, and fell

dad uin gond, a dannol gant i finnel valen Glorfindel
down from the rock, and falling caught the hair yellow (of) Glorfindel

nuin thôl dín, ah i thâd di danner na i iâ.
under the helm his, and the two those fell into the abyss.
Ailinel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 26, 2004 10:10
Hello Aino!

I think that _ú-gernir_ would be rather dubious. The meaning of _car-_ seems to be "do, make, build", not "can". Moreover, _car-_ seems to take an irregular past tense _agor-_ , cf. HFK "Reconstructing the Sindarin Verb System", p.30/31.


na vethed vragol a maethyr Glorfindel ú-gernir cabed na den.
to a sudden end and the warriors of Glorfindel couldn't leap by him.



I've made an attempt to change the sentence, but I don't think that the result is very convincing:

_a maethyr Glorfindel cemmir ù-far lagor_
and the warriors of Glorfindel leapt not-enough swiftly_ (lit.)
"and the warriors of G. did not leap swiftly enough"

Unfortunatly this is the best I can do at the moment.

(I think the second line is OK.)

[Edited on 27/11/2004 by Ailinel]
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 27, 2004 04:56
Thank you for your help, Ailinel!

I've made an attempt to change the sentence, but I don't think that the result is very convincing:

_a maethyr Glorfindel cemmir ù-far lagor_
and the warriors of Glorfindel leapt not-enough swiftly_ (lit.)
"and the warriors of G. did not leap swiftly enough"


I like it! Yes, the meaning is slightly different but the main idea is still there (and besides I'm afraid that the original sentence is really untranslatable.... it's my fault, I should have chosen something more "sindarinizable"!)
Ailinel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 27, 2004 07:39
I think you did it very well!
By the way, have you seen the Sindarin translations of fragments of the Silmarillion on Gwaith i-Phethdain (Silmarillion project)?

*Ailinel
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 27, 2004 07:48
I think you did it very well!


Thank you!!!


By the way, have you seen the Sindarin translations of fragments of the Silmarillion on Gwaith i-Phethdain (Silmarillion project)?


No, I haven't. Are they translating the Silmarillion into Sindarin? sounds great! (and very difficult, too...)
I'll have a look right now!
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 28, 2004 01:51
Now I've seen this 'The Silmarillion in Elvish' project and it's undoubtedly very interesting! I'm sure it's going to be very helpul to read the published translations. But Ailinel, did you mean that I could try sending this translation to the Gwaith i-Phethdain? (wow, that sounds a bit presumptuous of me, maybe, but who knows... )
Ailinel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 28, 2004 02:53
Aino,
I felt uncertain whether I should suggest that you send your translation to Ryszard Derdzinski. I'm trying to translate a small fragment myself, but as I'm not content with the result, I didn't dare to submit it until now. Sooner or later I shall make an attempt, and even if they don't publish it, what seems most likely, I might get a useful comment.

*Ailinel
Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 28, 2004 03:40

I felt uncertain whether I should suggest that you send your translation to Ryszard Derdzinski.


Actually it was a bit silly of me to think of it...


I'm trying to translate a small fragment myself, but as I'm not content with the result, I didn't dare to submit it until now.


How nice! What is it about?

Yes, it probably takes a while before a Sindarin translation gets satisfactory... anyway it's great that at the Gwaith site they're willing to read people's translations and make comments!
Ailinel
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 28, 2004 06:55
>Actually it was a bit silly of me to think of it...

No, I did not mean to say something like that, I assure you! It was just that I didn't know myself how they would react.

>How nice! What is it about?


It is a part of the Túrin story.

Suil
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Aino
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Post RE: A Deadly Combat
on: November 28, 2004 10:16
Don't worry Ailinel, it's just that I'm a bit clumsy with words!
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