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Aelgas
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Post Sea Fever
on: November 17, 2004 04:40
Suilad Sindarindrim ,

To hear Sindarin spoken in the LoTR movies has reawakened my youthful dreams of writing and speaking in Elvish (purely Sindarin though, I'm afraid I've never been fond of Quenya).

I was delighted to return to studying and find such a substantial corpus, and websites such as this one... my admiration is given to all ye scholars and enthusiasts.

Anyway, to the point. I've long thought that John Masefield's Sea Fever was a poem worthy of any elf with a smattering of Teleri blood and I've attempted to translate it, below. Being as this is my first attempt at serious Sindarin I'd appreciate it if the more knowledgeable among ye would check my grammar, i.e. declension, conjugation, lenition and mutation and of course more general comments are very welcome. The word order I know is a little unconventional here and there but only to preserve the rhyme - I hope.

I know someone attempted Sea Fever before but I've not found a finished version, so if anyone knows of one please point me at it.

Here goes, Sindarin, Literal English and lastly the proper English...

Lhiw o Anirad ‘aear

Boe anim ad bedi an ngaear,
an ngaear ereb, an menel.
Erui aniron orchal nín gaer,
ar radad nín ennin er el.
I rithad dogaud ar sûl laer
uin sûlwi ‘lan i dammad.
Ar hîth or talath ‘aear
di mhinuial mhith i edrad.

Boe anim ad bedi an ngaear,
i ganed ‘aear hwiniad nored
Na caned brêg na caned brui
balan dîn gar û-avad
Erui arad ‘waeren im anira
ir reviar in fain lain
I ‘wing ar falf bo ‘waew eriar
ar ganel i mhŷl fain.

Boe anim ad bedi an ngaear,
an guil randir bembar,
An mhen mhŷl ar limon dhaer
ar gwaew sui higil mhegor,
Erui narn ‘elir im anira
o randir sui nin i drenared
Ar dinen deri ar oltha melui
ir methed lend anann gar toled.

Sickness from Desiring [the] Sea

It is necessary for myself again to go to [the] sea
to [the] sea lonely, to [the] sky.
Only I desire tall my ship,
and my wayfinding for me one star
The jerking of the steer-device and [the] wind song
of the wind-net the knocking
And mist above [the] sea’s surface
beneath grey dawn the opening.

It is necessary for myself again to go to [the] sea
the call of [the] sea ebbing running
Is [a] wild call is [a] loud call
its power has no denial
Only a windy day I desire
when flying are the white clouds
The sea-spume and foam on [the] wind are rising
and the calling of the white gulls.

It is necessary for myself again to go to [the] sea
to [the] life of [a] wanderer homeless
To the way of [the] gull and [the] great fish great
and wind like [a] sharp-pointed dagger.
Only [a] tale pleasant I desire
from [a] wanderer like myself the telling
And silent to rest and to dream sweet
when [the] end of [the] journey long has [its] coming.

Sea Fever

I must go down to the seas again,
to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship
and a star to steer her by,
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song
and the white sail's shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea's face
and a grey dawn breaking.

I must go down to the seas again,
for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call
that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day
with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume,
and the sea-gulls crying.

I must go down to the seas again
to the vagrant gypsy life,
To the gull's way and the whale's way
where the wind's like a whetted knife;
And all I ask is a merry yarn
from a laughing fellow rover,
And quiet sleep and a sweet dream
when the long trick's over

I had to attempt a couple of word constructs, namely:

togaud - steering device ( tog - lead, bring + gaud - device)
sûlwi (noun) - sail (sûl - wind + gwi - net)
limon (noun) - great-fish (lim - fish + -on)
pembar (adv.) - homeless (pen -without + bar - home

Kind Regards,

Aelgas

[Edited on 19/11/2004 by Aelgas]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 17, 2004 05:38
Very cool!

Just one quickie question... we do have 'revia-' (fly/sail). Is there any particular reason you didn't use that?

If no one else gets 'to it', I'll try to get you some comments soon...

[Edited on 17/11/2004 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Aelgas
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 17, 2004 01:29
Thanks for posting.

To answer your question, I didn't use revia- because I needed a simple noun. The gerund wasn't suitable and I haven't yet come across a method for extrapolating simple nouns from a verb.

You'll note I do use revia- in the line 'ir reviar in fain lain'. I was aware of it, thanks to the excellent Dragon Flame, but couldn't serve my need therewith..
Malinornë
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 20, 2004 05:06
Suilad Aelgas! It's always nice to meet new enthusiastic members of this site
I've prepared some comments for you, so far only for the first stanza, but more will follow.

I must go down to the seas again,
Boe anim ad bedi an ngaear,
It is necessary for myself again to go to [the] sea
>> Gerunds seem to be preferred to infinitives, so I'd use "baded" here
For "to the" in the sense "to/towards a location" I suggest using "nan"… "an" to me seems to have a more "dative" ("to/for a person") feel to it.

to the lonely sea and the sky,
an ngaear ereb, an menel.
to [the] sea lonely, to [the] sky.
>>> same comment regarding the preposition… I'd use "nan". If you keep "an", then it would mutate to "am" before "menel".

And all I ask is a tall ship
Erui aniron orchal nín gaer,
Only I desire tall my ship,
>> spelling: aníron, gair

and a star to steer her by,
ar radad nín ennin er el.
and my wayfinding for me one star
>> "enni"… but I think just "my wayfinding" might be enough

And the wheel's kick and the wind's song
I rithad dogaud ar sûl laer
The jerking of the steer-device and [the] wind song
>> I'd think "au" in your compound might be shortened to "o" (as in the weekdays)
I'm also thinking that all the things mentioned further on here (jerking, knocking, mist, dawn) are continuations of "All I ask…", so the 'lenition of direct objects' rule applies where possible.

and the white sail's shaking,
uin sûlwi ‘lan i dammad.
of the wind-net the knocking
>>"of the" here is "genitival", so I'd use "en". I'd also lenit "dammad", as it's used as a noun here.

And a grey mist on the sea's face
Ar hîth or talath ‘aear
And mist above [the] sea’s surface
>>chîth (lenition as direct object), thalath (liquid mutation after "or")
Malinornë
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 20, 2004 05:42
Some ideas on the second stanza:

for the call of the running tide
i ganed ‘aear hwiniad nored
the call of [the] sea ebbing running
>> IMHO "gaear" shouldn't be lenited here… I guess you did it to show an "adjectival" use, but with this word order it looks more like "the sea calling of the running eddyl" than "the calling of the running sea-eddy". I'd use the genitive article (en) here to make it clearer which of the words belong together, and also take out something to make the phrase simpler. "Hwiniad" already implies something moving fast, twirling around, so I think "nored" could be removed without changing the meaning much (you might want to reconsider the literal English… "eddy" and "ebb" aren't quite the same

Is a wild call and a clear call
Na caned brêg na caned brui
Is [a] wild call is [a] loud call
>> Because of the poor attestation of "to be", I wouldn't use "na". I suggest "i" (the) instead, as I guess you want something before "caned". Lenit "brêg" and "brui".

that may not be denied;
balan dîn gar û-avad
its power has no denial
>> I'd attach "ú" to the verb instead. And maybe use "bellas" instead of "balan"… it would be "strength", not power, but as "balan" seems to be "a divine power", I'd still prefer that myself.

And all I ask is a windy day
Erui arad ‘waeren im anira
Only a windy day I desire
>> aníron?

with the white clouds flying,
ir reviar in fain lain
when flying are the white clouds
>>'lain?

and the sea-gulls crying.
ar ganel i mhŷl fain.
and the calling of the white gulls.
>>I think you need "are calling" here, present tense, not active participle or gerund, in order to make this last line fit with the construction you've used above ("when clouds are flying…sea-spume and foam are rising).
If you want the Sindarin to say what I think is in your literal English translation, then I suggest "ar ganed i mŷl fain".
Malinornë
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 20, 2004 08:09
And finally, some feedback on the last part:

To the gull's way and the whale's way
An mhen mhŷl ar limon dhaer
To the way of [the] gull and [the] great fish great
>>"Am men" (I'd use "nan men"). No need to lenit "mŷl"… it's a noun in a genitival phrase, not an adjective

where the wind's like a whetted knife;
ar gwaew sui higil mhegor,
and wind like [a] sharp-pointed dagger.
>>"sui" isn't known to cause lenition

And quiet sleep and a sweet dream
Ar dinen deri ar oltha melui
And silent to rest and to dream sweet
>>>I'd use the gerund "dared" instead of inf. "deri" (I guess you don't want the one-syllable noun "îdh", which would be my first choice). Gerund "olthad" (but rather noun "ôl" … plural "elei" might fit you better)

when the long trick's over
ir methed lend anann gar toled.
when [the] end of [the] journey long has [its] coming.
>>I'd think "and" better here, as "anann" is an adverb. Perhaps "anglenna" (approaches) instead of "gar toled"? It sounds more natural to me and I think it would fit your rhythm. If you keep "gar", then "toled" would be lenited as its direct object.

I hope you find these comments useful.
Aelgas
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 21, 2004 07:28
Brilliant!

Thank you very much for your extremely thorough input, exactly what I was hoping for.

I now have this:

Lhiw o Anirad ‘aear

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
nan gaear ereb, nan menel.
Erui aníron orchal nín gair,
ar radad nín enni er el.
I rithad dogod ar hûl laer
e-hûlwi ‘lan i dhammad.
Ar chîth or thalath gaear
di mhinuial mhith i edrad.

Boe anim ad baded an aear,
i ganed e-gaear hwiniad
I ganed bhrêg i ganed bhrui
balan dîn û-gar i avad
Erui arad ‘waeren im anira
ir reviar in fain ‘lain
I ‘wing ar falf bo ‘waew eriar
ar cenir i mhŷl fain.

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
nan guil edh-randir bembar,
Nan men mŷl ar limon dhaer
ar gwaew sui sigil mhegor,
Erui narn ‘elir im anira
o randir sui nin i drenared
Ar dinen dared ar olthad melui
ir methed lend and gar doled.

Some questions

I've kept 'balan' rather than 'bellas' as I wanted to imply the spirit of Ulmo, Uinen and Ossë behind the calling of the sea, is that allowable?

I'd like to keep 'im anira' where I've used it to maintain the rhyme or scansion, I thought I'd read somewhere that one can use the 3rd sing with a different personal pronoun instead of the normal conjugation, i.e. 'aniron'

For the suggestion 'dogod' instead of 'dogaud' I'm most grateful as I thought the latter word sound horrible

WRT 'lain' I'd missed the apostrophe for the lenited g, but TBH I'm not sure whether the adjective should be in the plural to agree with 'fain' as the plural of 'fân' or not. I'd also have preferred to use 'faun' for 'cloud' but was unsure whether the correct plural would be 'foen'.

I agree with your point about the last line and 'anglenna' would suit very well except I needed to rhyme 'drenared'.

Otherwise I was happy to implement all suggested changes, and thanks once again for the input. I've likely got something else wrong second time around, so please let me know if I have.


[Edited on 21/11/2004 by Aelgas]
Malinornë
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 21, 2004 09:16
Thank you very much for your extremely thorough input, exactly what I was hoping for.

Thanks! Just keep in mind that what I suggested was according to my personal understanding of things... not a 'gospel'

I've kept 'balan' rather than 'bellas' as I wanted to imply the spirit of Ulmo, Uinen and Ossë behind the calling of the sea, is that allowable?

I'd say it's a matter of taste, rather than what's allowed... but of course, if you want the implication of Valar, then it seems natural to keep 'balan'

I'd like to keep 'im anira' where I've used it to maintain the rhyme or scansion, I thought I'd read somewhere that one can use the 3rd sing with a different personal pronoun instead of the normal conjugation, i.e. 'aniron'

There's the attested phrase "Im Narvi hain echant" (I Narvi made them), so it does seem possible... there are just more examples with pronominal endings.

WRT 'lain' I'd missed the apostrophe for the lenited g, but TBH I'm not sure whether the adjective should be in the plural to agree with 'fain' as the plural of 'fân' or not. I'd also have preferred to use 'faun' for 'cloud' but was unsure whether the correct plural would be 'foen'.

If you have a plural noun, then the adjective describing it needs to be plural too. 'Foen' as plural of 'faun' looks good to me. (And I've learned two new English abbreviations... took me a while to figure out what WRT and TBH means

I'll have a closer look at the new version tomorrow, but it would probably be even better if someone else did, as I may have missed something
Fíriel
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 21, 2004 02:49
Malinornë has already made some excellent suggestions, so I'll just chip in a few of my own. Note that I make these suggestions without any regard for the rhyme and rhythm of the verse, so it's up to you if you'd like to implement it.

Erui aníron orchal nín gair,


Why this word order, unless I'm missing something? The usual would be aniron gair orchal nín.

Boe anim ad baded an aear,


It's nan gaear in the other verses, isn't it?

I ganed bhrêg i ganed bhrui
balan dîn û-gar i avad


I think it might be better to write bhrêg and bhrui as vrêg and vrui, since Tolkien himself has never written the lenition of B as BH (the few instances of M > MH occur in the King's Letter). Besides, there's no trouble of confusing the two mutations, as you've already written M > MH. Gar's A needs to be lengthened and the verb needs to be lenited, therefore ú-âr. Also, how about ubed for avad?

Erui arad ‘waeren im anira
ir reviar in fain ‘lain


I causes lenition, so i fain 'lain.

Edit: Silly me. It's IN that causes NASAL mutation! The above phrase is still right though.

I ‘wing ar falf bo ‘waew eriar
ar cenir i mhŷl fain.


I wonder if in this instance you need to use the present participle for 'are rising'? i 'wing ar falf bo gwaew eriol? As far as I know, bo doesn't cause lenition (as can be seen in the Ae Adar Nín), so I would not think it likely here.

Erui narn ‘elir im anira
o randir sui nin i drenared


You can't really use gelir here as an adjective, since it means 'happy person' and is therefore a noun, so you have two alternatives; adding an adjectival ending onto gelir, or using a synonym like 'sweet', melui, or 'joyous', meren (although the latter might be a bit too happy. ).


Ar dinen dared ar olthad melui
ir methed lend and gar doled.


In this instance, I can't see why you wouldn't translate it literally (unless it interferes with the poem's style)... îdh dhínen. Melui needs to be lenited here because it's an adjective, so ar olthad velui. There is a noun for 'dream', ôl, the plural of which would be elei, but you probably have your reasons.

I did have more comments, but I wasn't sure on what occasions you were using poetic licence. BTW, 'Sea Fever' is a beautiful poem, and I'm glad somebody has attempted it.

[Edited on 6/12/2004 by Fíriel]
Aelgas
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 22, 2004 02:32
Trenared Nail

Lhiw o Anirad ‘aear

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
nan gaear ereb, nan menel.
Erui aníron orchal nín gair,
ar radad nín enni er el.
I rithad dogod ar hûl laer
e-hûlwi ‘lan i dhammad.
Ar chîth or dhalath gaear
di mhinuial mhith i edrad.

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
i ganed e-gaear hwiniad
I ganed vrêg i ganed vrui
balan dîn ú-âr i avad
Erui arad ‘waeren im anira
ir reviar i foen ‘lain
I ‘wing ar falf bo gwaew eriar
ar cenir i mŷl fain.

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
nan guil randir bembar,
Nan men mŷl ar limon dhaer
ar gwaew sui sigil mhegor,
Erui narn anlalaith im anira
o randir sui nin i drenared
Ar îdh dhinen ar ôl velui
ir methed lend and gar doled.

Many thanks again, both of you. My apologies to Malinornë… it was arrogant of me to assume understanding of WRT and TBH. Although in my defence I thought them common ‘net abbreviations rather than common English ones - the latter in truth they are not.

Fíriel, please post further comments if you have them – pay no mind to poetic licence – indeed, it could be argued that if one cannot readily see where poetic licence is used then it is used poorly or were better not used at all!

Some of my thoughts and justifications, should you be interested:

‘bh’ for ‘v’ – corrected. Force of habit I’m afraid, for me the letter ‘v’ looks wrong in a pseudo-Celtic language…and certainly doesn’t exist in Welsh, where ‘f’ suffices. I have to resist the Irish temptation to write ‘gcair’, too .

‘Erui aníron orchal nín gair’ The word order is primarily to preserve an assonance with ‘gaear’, although my attempted rhyme scheme ABAB is not really required in order to match Masefield’s ABCB. Also, one could say that ‘orchal’ is not required at all. Masefield uses ‘tall ship’ to make a distinction between a sailing ship and a steam ship - a distinction not required in Middle-Earth, I imagine . However, I kept ‘tall’ translated to ‘orchal’ and ‘wrongly’ positioned in an attempt to emphasise an image of a high-masted sailing ship. ‘Loftiness for my ship’ is what I was really after but couldn’t find how to get the ‘-ness’ part. (Messrs. Howe and Lee, illustrators of Middle-Earth par excellence always depict M-E ships as single-masted galley types, but I personally think it likely that the Elves, or certainly the Númenoreans, built multi-masted ‘tall’ ships.)

Leniting the ‘g’ in ‘balan dîn ú-âr i avad’ now gives me an ‘Oo Ar’ sound. Lol, very nautical… for English, anyway.

‘avad’ vs. ‘ubed’ Purely rhyme preservation, although there’s not really a lot of difference between ‘hwiniad….. avad’ and ‘hwiniad… ubed’.

'Erui narn ‘elir im anira'. Replaced ''elir' with 'anlalaith', thinking that, as I don't translate 'laughing fellow rover' accurately a 'tale with laughter' could satisfy both that and the need for 'merry yarn'.

‘Ar îdh dhinen ar ôl velui’. There is no reason not to translate directly as you have pointed out and it sounds good to my ear in the singular. ‘elei velui’ I’d resist as it sounds more like Ancient Greek

Lastly, while I’m happy with my construct ‘sûlwi’ for the noun ‘sail’ I feel it would be better in the plural here and I’m struggling to create a plural I like the sound of. ‘sylwin’ is my rule-based deduction although I’d prefer ‘sylwith’ as the ‘th’ ending has a hint of a ‘host of sails’ to my mind. I guess 'gwin' is the plural of 'gwi' - am I duty-bound to preserve that pattern? I’d welcome suggestions.

[Edited on 22/11/2004 by Aelgas]
Malinornë
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 22, 2004 04:21
Aelgas, don't worry! It was not arrogant of you to use those, and I was not the least bit offended. I just had to think a little before I understood - nothing wrong with that, and it's neither the first nor the last time that happens! :hug:

[Edited on 22/11/2004 by Malinornë]
Fíriel
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 22, 2004 02:03
Aelgas, I'll have to comment some more tomorrow, but for now, this comment caught my eye, and I just had to comment on it (about something unrelated to your translations):

‘Erui aníron orchal nín gair’ The word order is primarily to preserve an assonance with ‘gaear’, although my attempted rhyme scheme ABAB is not really required in order to match Masefield’s ABCB. Also, one could say that ‘orchal’ is not required at all. Masefield uses ‘tall ship’ to make a distinction between a sailing ship and a steam ship - a distinction not required in Middle-Earth, I imagine . However, I kept ‘tall’ translated to ‘orchal’ and ‘wrongly’ positioned in an attempt to emphasise an image of a high-masted sailing ship. ‘Loftiness for my ship’ is what I was really after but couldn’t find how to get the ‘-ness’ part. (Messrs. Howe and Lee, illustrators of Middle-Earth par excellence always depict M-E ships as single-masted galley types, but I personally think it likely that the Elves, or certainly the Númenoreans, built multi-masted ‘tall’ ships.)


The text of the Akallabêth is so interestingly worded, that I wonder sometimes if Tolkien was suggesting that the Númenóreans at the height of their power and arrogance _did_ build steam-powered ships:

For with the aid and counsel of Sauron they multiplied then: possessions, and they devised engines, and they built ever greater ships.


But then I read this, which makes me wonder if they could be hybrid ships, like the HMS Warrior. Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into this?

their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their sails like a brooding cloud; and their banners were golden and black


In any case, there's nothing wrong with retaining the distinction of 'tall ship' in your text -- Tolkien uses the term himself, and certainly, the Númenóreans used multi-masted ships, as did the Faithful.
Aelgas
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: November 23, 2004 04:06
The text of the Akallabêth is so interestingly worded, that I wonder sometimes if Tolkien was suggesting that the Númenóreans at the height of their power and arrogance _did_ build steam-powered ships:

For with the aid and counsel of Sauron they multiplied then: possessions, and they devised engines, and they built ever greater ships.


But then I read this, which makes me wonder if they could be hybrid ships, like the HMS Warrior. Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into this?

their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their sails like a brooding cloud; and their banners were golden and black


Your former point would certainly fit with other variants or interpretations of the Atlantis legend... and with Tolkien's repeated associations of machinery with a fall from Grace. As for the latter quote, their ships may have been even more hybrid than HMS Warrior, possibly having bank upon bank of oars as well!

Personally, I'd always imagined Vingilot as akin to an incredibly graceful schooner, but smaller, and with oars (althought not many, with a crew of only four including Eärendil himself!)... however, I digress, succumbing to your temptation

I look forward to your further comments with interest.
Fíriel
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: December 05, 2004 02:50
Fíriel, please post further comments if you have them – pay no mind to poetic licence – indeed, it could be argued that if one cannot readily see where poetic licence is used then it is used poorly or were better not used at all!


Perhaps. I do appreciate greatly beautiful poetry, but I'm very poor at critiquing it.

Okay, I don't have as much to say as I expected, which can only be a good thing. These observations are just things I noticed when I was picking through your translation last time. I'm sure there are people more learned than me out there who'll hopefully chip in also with their own corrections and suggestions.

Lastly, while I’m happy with my construct ‘sûlwi’ for the noun ‘sail’ I feel it would be better in the plural here and I’m struggling to create a plural I like the sound of. ‘sylwin’ is my rule-based deduction although I’d prefer ‘sylwith’ as the ‘th’ ending has a hint of a ‘host of sails’ to my mind. I guess 'gwin' is the plural of 'gwi' - am I duty-bound to preserve that pattern? I’d welcome suggestions.


I don't think gwî has an attested plural, so we can't be sure if gwî would form its plurals that way -- usually you can tell a Sindarin noun's number by its context. However, initial long Us seem to be unaffected by plural umlaut, so if you wish to avoid the ambiguity, perhaps súlwiath would be better, and then you have the suggestion of a 'host of sails' as well.

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
i ganed e-gaear hwiniad*


I think that using the present participle of hwinia- would be better here, for the English has 'running' as a participle/adjective, so chwiniol.
Aelgas
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Post RE: Sea Fever
on: December 08, 2004 02:32
Thank you Fíriel. Sorry it's taken so long to reply, I was busy with something else

Reflecting on your sugestion of the present participle of hwinia-, I agree, but it messed up the rhyme so I substituted alag instead, which has a good assonance with avad ...

So the second stanza now is:

Boe anim ad baded nan gaear,
i ganed e-gaear alag
I ganed vrêg i ganed vrui
balan dîn ú-âr i avad
Erui arad ‘waeren im anira
ir reviar i fain ‘lain
I ‘wing a falf bo gwaew eriar
a cenir i mŷl fain

If there's no more to critique I'm very happy . Thanks again for all your help.
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