Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Languages » Sindarin Discussion » Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
Author Topic:
Aelgas
Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message
Avatar
Post Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: December 21, 2004 03:31
Thanks for the guidance on Sindarin over Quenya... here's my attempt at a translation.

I've also knocked up a facsimile, although I know it'll need corrections http://www.btinternet.com/~aelgas/Images/isildurs_note.jpg

So, Sindarin, Literal English and English:


Gorf Dhaer beditha sui mîr Arnad Fuir; ar i bennas hîn deritha ne Gondor, ne dôr hen dorthar i chîl Elendil, da tholed lû ir hannas naid dhaer hin gwathratha.

Vorn i ned, i lû vain memmin han, vorn sui brass iûl, ar na gam nín naegriel hîn, ar ú-harthan i leithian o naeg hîn. Si, ned i lû e-theithad nín, brass hîn gwanna, a thia as aniben. Cant hîn ar thîr vain hîn broniar. Ned in eraid hin i pheth bo san, lû vin lim sui naur ruin, gwathrar a i gened hîn ú-dharthatha. i echaded hîn ben deithad edhellen o Eregion, ú-istar thîw ne Mordor far na gared vaen, ar ú-erin hannas lam. Garin hen lam Dôr Morn, lam waur a dheleb. Ú-istam i um sen pêd, a sí cerin han ad dan gwethiel hîn athan adganed. Boe ni chorf i vrass cam Sauron, cam vorn pen vrass sui naur, a na hen Gil-galad gwannant; ar ae i gôl geritha ad vrass, i thîw geritha ad i gened hîn. Anim, ú-verthathan naegrad san, o naid phain Sauron, i ned vain erui. Ned vuin anim, trî naeg dhaur hebin han.

Na cam hín, 10 Yavannië, Idthrin Edwen en Andrann Nail

Isíldur A[ran]




[The] Ring Great will go as [a] treasure of [the] Kingdom North, and the historical account of it remain in Gondor, in land this dwell Elendil’s heirs, against [the] coming [of a] time when understanding of things great these will dim.

Hot the thing, the occasion first I seized it, hot as white-heat of embers, and to my hand [the] pain-causing of it, and I hope not the freeing of [the] pain of it. Now, in the time of writing this, white-heat of it dies, and seems it smaller. [The] shape of it and [the] look beautiful of it endure. In days these the words on it, time first clear as fire red, dim and the seeing of them will last not. The fashioning of them according to writing elvish of Eregion, they know not marks in Mordor sufficient for making beautiful, and I have not understanding [of the] tongue. I hold it [a] tongue [of the] Land Black, [a] tongue dirty and loathsome. I know not the evil it says, and here I make it again against [the] fading of it beyond again-calling. It is necessary for the ring the white-heat [of the] hand [of] Sauron, [a] hand black with white-heat like fire, and by it Gil-galad died, and if the gold will have again white-heat, the words will have again the seeing of them. For me, I will dare not [the] hurting of it, of things all [of] Sauron, the thing beautiful only. [A] thing dear to me, through pain great I keep it.

By hand mine, 10 Yavannië, Year Second of [the] Age Third,

Isíldur R[ex]




The Great Ring shall go now to be an heirloom of the North Kingdom; but records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest the time come when the memory of these great matters shall become dim.

It was hot when I first took it, as hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an Elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saieth I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain.

By my hand, 1st September, Second Year of the Third Age,

Isíldur R[ex]

All comments welcome and appreciated.
Ailinel
Council Member
Posts: 811
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: December 23, 2004 01:27
This is an interesting translation, and rather challenging, and I have quite a few ideas and questions respectively. These are my thoughts on the first sentence:


Gorf Dhaer beditha sui mîr Arnad Fuir; ar i bennas hîn deritha ne Gondor, ne dôr hen dorthar i chîl Elendil, da tholed lû ir hannas naid dhaer hin gwathratha.

[The] Ring Great will go as [a] treasure of [the] Kingdom North, and the historical account of it remain in Gondor, in land this dwell Elendil’s heirs, against [the] coming [of a] time when understanding of things great these will dim.

The Great Ring shall go now to be an heirloom of the North Kingdom; but records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest the time come when the memory of these great matters shall become dim.


AFAIK the reconstructed word for "ring" is *corf, so "the ring" would be i gorf.

Instead of _Arnad Fuir_ "Kingdom North" I would rather write Arnad Forodren "Northern Kingdom" or Arnad en-Fuir, Arnad en-Forod "Kingdom of the North" or I would form a compound.

_i bennas hîn_ "the historical account of it": I don't quite understand _hîn_ "of it". (?)

_ne_ "in" (?) , obviously used without mutation (?). I could not find that preposition anywhere.

dan is "against". I would also suggest tholed e-lû "coming of a time" with genitive article.

We have the word rîn "remembrance", so maybe it woud fit better than "understanding".

And one more question:
gwathra- "to overshadow, dim, veil, obscure" seems to be a transitive verb. So if you want to say "the memory shall become dim", shouldn't you rather use the passive here?
Aelgas
Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: December 23, 2004 07:29
Suilad Ailinel,

thanks for taking the time to read it and for posting your observations.

Some of my reasoning:

I didn't really want to start the text with the article, as the tengwar facsimile wouldn't have the tehtar on a carrier but above the ungwe. I thought that leniting corf would imply the missing article.

I prefer your versions of North Kingdom and will change it, probably to Arnad en-Fuir

_bennas hîn_ - lenited sîn for "of it" or "its" Isn't soft mutation required in adjectival use of possesive pronouns?

_ne_ - I'm using ned for "in" (probably incorrectly if it's only associated with time). Stop mutation produces _ne dôr_ ?

_da tholed lû_ - nasal mutation dan and toled?

e-lû - is a better form so I'll change that

rîn - is a good suggestion but it would give the phrase ir rîn or ir i rîn . I don't know about you but the tip of my tongue doesn't dance fast enough to roll consecutive 'r's!

_gwathratha_ - you are, of course, correct. I'll change it or maybe use thinna- instead, as the 'twilgiht' association might reflect some fore-notion of the waning of Gondor

Thanks for your comments, I hope you'll find time to post some more.
Ailinel
Council Member
Posts: 811
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: December 25, 2004 09:04
Suilad Aelgas!

I shall certainly continue to review your translation very soon. For now I have some thoughts in answer to your reasoning:

I have seen your tengwar transcription which is beautiful and looks all right to me. I'm no calligraphy expert, so maybe I'm completely wrong, but I was under the impression that the article i should be written as "i" tehta above the first consonant of the following noun. And since gorf means "impetus, vigour" there might arise misunderstanding.

_bennas hîn_ : I thought that "its" would be tîn, lenited dîn. (?)

_ne_: If you want to use ned, it would rather be ne ndôr (nasalized stop/special case)

_da tholed_: Yes, of course!

_ir i rîn_: yes, the trilled "r" isn't easy.( My native language is German.)


[Edited on 26/12/2004 by Ailinel]
Ailinel
Council Member
Posts: 811
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: December 30, 2004 11:24
Suil Aelgas,
here are some further observations


Vorn i ned, i lû vain memmin han, vorn sui brass iûl, ar na gam nín naegriel hîn, ar ú-harthan i leithian o naeg hîn. Si, ned i lû e-theithad nín, brass hîn gwanna, a thia as aniben. Cant hîn ar thîr vain hîn broniar. Ned in eraid hin i pheth bo san, lû vin lim sui naur ruin, gwathrar a i gened hîn ú-dharthatha. i echaded hîn ben deithad edhellen o Eregion, ú-istar thîw ne Mordor far na gared vaen, ar ú-erin hannas lam. Garin hen lam Dôr Morn, lam waur a dheleb. Ú-istam i um sen pêd, a sí cerin han ad dan gwethiel hîn athan adganed. Boe ni chorf i vrass cam Sauron, cam vorn pen vrass sui naur, a na hen Gil-galad gwannant; ar ae i gôl geritha ad vrass, i thîw geritha ad i gened hîn. Anim, ú-verthathan naegrad san, o naid phain Sauron, i ned vain erui. Ned vuin anim, trî naeg dhaur hebin han.

Na cam hín, 10 Yavannië, Idthrin Edwen en Andrann Nail

Isíldur A[ran]


Hot the thing, the occasion first I seized it, hot as white-heat of embers, and to my hand [the] pain-causing of it, and I hope not the freeing of [the] pain of it. Now, in the time of writing this, white-heat of it dies, and seems it smaller. [The] shape of it and [the] look beautiful of it endure. In days these the words on it, time first clear as fire red, dim and the seeing of them will last not. The fashioning of them according to writing elvish of Eregion, they know not marks in Mordor sufficient for making beautiful, and I have not understanding [of the] tongue. I hold it [a] tongue [of the] Land Black, [a] tongue dirty and loathsome. I know not the evil it says, and here I make it again against [the] fading of it beyond again-calling. It is necessary for the ring the white-heat [of the] hand [of] Sauron, [a] hand black with white-heat like fire, and by it Gil-galad died, and if the gold will have again white-heat, the words will have again the seeing of them. For me, I will dare not [the] hurting of it, of things all [of] Sauron, the thing beautiful only. [A] thing dear to me, through pain great I keep it.

By hand mine, 10 Yavannië, Year Second of [the] Age Third,

Isíldur R[ex] .


_vorn i ned_ : IMO born i nad "hot (was) the thing", no lenition.

_i lû vain_ : main means "first (only in the sense of prime, chief, preeminent)", so I would suggest minui instead.

_memmin han_ : I think that pronouns in accusative are more often found before the verb.

_naegriel_ seems to be the past active participle. "having caused pain". From your litteral translation I don't know whether you wanted to use this participle, but if so, I think you could just write _ar naegriel na gam nîn_ .

_ú-harthan_ : ú-harthon

_hîn_ : IMO dîn = "its", or în, if the possessive refers to the same thing which is subject of the sentence. (This observation applies to the use of _hîn_ throughout the translation.)

_a _ : There are two words for "and": ar and a /ah, but I believe that you shouldn't use both forms in one text.

_as_ "it" (??)

_aniben_ : IMO _an_+_niben_ would rather be *anniben, though the formation of comparative is doubtful.

_i pheth_ : i phith, plural.

_lû vin_ : _vin_ (??)

_ú-erin hannas lam_ : IMO ú-'erin channas e-lam, direct object lenited, genitive article.

_Garin hen lam Dôr Morn_ : IMO Han gerin lam Dôr Vorn.

_waur_ : 'waur

_ú-istam_ : ú-iston

_sen_ (??)

_gwethiel_ = "having soiled / stained" (?). I think you mean gwathra-, maybe the gerund gwathrad ?

_adganed_ : IMO _ad_+_caned_ = *achaned.

_i vrass cam_ : i vrass e-gam

_pen_ (??) means "without"!

_hen_ : IMO han

_i thîw geritha_ : gerithar, plural.

_ú-verthathan_ : ú-verthathon

_san_ (??)

_naid phain_ : naid bain, with soft mutation.

_ned_ : nad

_naeg dhaur_ : naeg daur, taur lenited.

_na cam hín_ : na gam nîn

_Yavannie_ : Sindarin: ivanneth

_Idthrin_ : Idhrin


Of course there might be other opinions, and I would appreciate any comment.
At some points I would have chosen a different wording, but I didn't want to change the translation too much.
Aelgas
Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: January 01, 2005 04:06
Wow! Thanks.

I'll post some more considered comment on your comments when I've looked at them more closely but I'm posting now to express my appreciation for the effort you've put int to looking over my attempted translation.

One point here though, I used the Quenya form of the month deliberately imagining that Isíldur would stick to the Númenórean custom.

Thanks again.
Aelgas
Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Isíldur's Note - Translation Attempt
on: January 06, 2005 07:10
Thanks again for your help Ailinel. I could find no reason not to implement the changes/corrections you suggested. I think I must be using a different pronoun reconstruction chart from everyone else. Looking at my translation again I saw bits I felt I could do better, like replacing 'it' with 'the thing' where a pronoun was doubtful. So, I now have...


Minas Anor

I Gorf Dhaer beditha sui hîlmîr Arnad en-Fuir; ar i bennas dîn deritha ne Gondor, ne ndôr hen dorthar i chîl Elendil, da tholed e-lû ir hannas naid dhaer hin thinnatha.

Born i nad, i lû vinui han memmin, born sui brass iûl, ar na gam nín naegriel dîn, ar ú-‘erin estel an leithian o naeg dîn. Si, ned i lû e-theithad nín, brass dîn gwanna, ar i nad thia aniben. Cant dîn ar thîr vain dîn broniar. Ned in eraid hin i phith bo san, lû vinui lim sui naur ruin, gwathrar hain ar i gened dîn ú-dharthatha. I echaded hîn ben deithad edhellen o Eregion, ú-istar thîw ne Mordor far na gared vaen, ar ú-‘erin channas lam. Hen gerin lam Dôr Vorn, lam ‘waur ar dheleb. Ú-iston i um i nad pêd, ar sí cerin han ad, da pheleth dîn athan achaned. Boe ni chorf, thiad, i vrass e-gam Sauron, cam vorn na vrass sui naur, ar na han Gil-galad gwannant; ar ae i gôl geritha ad vrass, i thîw gerithar ad i gened dîn. Anim, ú-verthathan naegrad san, o naid bain Sauron, i nad vain erui. Nad vuin anim, trî naeg daur hebin han.

Na cam hín, 10 Yavannië, Idhrin Edwen en Andrann Nail

Isíldur A[ran]


Minas Anor

The Ring Great will go as [an] heir-treasure of [the] Kingdom of [the] North, and the historical account of it will remain in Gondor, in land this dwell Elendil’s heirs, against [the] coming [of a] time when understanding of things great these will dim.

Hot the thing, the occasion first I seized it, hot as white-heat of embers, and to my hand [the] having caused pain of it, and I have not hope for the release of [the] pain of it. Now, in the time of writing this, white-heat of it dies, and the thing seems smaller. [The] shape of it and [the] look beautiful of it endure. In days these the words on it, time first clear as fire red, dim them[selves] and the seeing of them will last not. The fashioning of them according to writing elvish of Eregion, they know not marks in Mordor sufficient for making beautiful, and I have not understanding [of the] tongue. I hold it [a] tongue [of the] Land Black, [a] tongue dirty and loathsome. I know not the evil it says, and here I make it again, against [the] fading of it beyond again-calling. It is necessary for the ring, [a] seeming, the white-heat [of the] hand [of] Sauron, [a] hand black with white-heat like fire, and by it Gil-galad died, and if the gold will have again white-heat, the words will have again the seeing of them. For me, I will dare not [the] hurting of it, of things all [of] Sauron, the thing beautiful only. [A] thing dear to me, through pain great I keep it.

By hand mine, 10 Yavannië, Year Second of [the] Age Third,

Isíldur R[ex]


Minas Anor

The Great Ring shall go now to be an heirloom of the North Kingdom; but records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest the time come when the memory of these great matters shall become dim.

It was hot when I first took it, as hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an Elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saieth I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain.

By my hand, 1st September, Second Year of the Third Age,

Isíldur R[ex]


Constructs:

I felt _mír_ wasn't enough on it's own and combined it with _híl_ for 'heirloom'

I've used the _thiad_ gerund for '[a] seeming' to convey 'maybe'
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email