Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Languages » Sindarin Discussion » The verb ava-
Author Topic:
Tiredion
Council Member
Posts: 5
Send Message
Avatar
Post The verb ava-
on: December 27, 2004 06:36
The verb ava- means "to not (do something)" if I am not mistaken. But I have seen it used where it would mean "to not be." I wondered if that was correct usage of the word.

-- Tiredion
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: The verb ava-
on: December 27, 2004 11:55
Ava- seems to be an auxiliary verb. Since the copula seems not to be expressed in the present tense, ava- can probably accompany an implied verb 'to be'. Therefore, if one says, "Mithrandir ava gelir", I guess that could conceivably mean "Gandalf (is) not happy", since 'is' would not normally be used.
Tiredion
Council Member
Posts: 5
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: The verb ava-
on: December 27, 2004 01:36
Hannad! ^_^
Bellenion
Council Member
Posts: 51
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: The verb ava-
on: December 27, 2004 07:01
Ava- seems to be an auxiliary verb. Since the copula seems not to be expressed in the present tense, ava- can probably accompany an implied verb 'to be'. Therefore, if one says, "Mithrandir ava gelir", I guess that could conceivably mean "Gandalf (is) not happy", since 'is' would not normally be used.


Well... _gelir_ is a noun, not an adjective. I also think negative morpheme as _ava-_ would trigger mutation
Cf. _avo garo!_[WJ:371] and _ú-chebin estel anim_[LotR App.]

So how about *_Mithrandir ava veren_"Gandalf will not [be] joyous" or *_Mithrandir ú veren_"Gandalf [is] not joyous"?
Naneth
Elvish 101 Moderator
Posts: 568
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: The verb ava-
on: December 28, 2004 10:04
I don't believe "ava-" can be used in this way. "Ava-" is described in The War of the Jewels in this way:

Though this became a verbal stem, it is probably derived from a primitive negative element, or exclamation, such as *ba 'no!' It did not, however, deny facts, but always expressed concern or will; that is, it expressed refusal to do what others might wish or urge, or prohibition of some action by others.

In Sindarin the following forms are found. baw! imperious negative: 'No, no! Don't!; avo negative adverb with verbs, as avo garo! 'don't do it'; sometimes used as a prefix: avgaro. This could be personalized in the form avon 'I won't', avam 'we won't'. These were of course not in fact derived from avo, which contained the imperative -o < ā, but from the verb stem aba, with inflexions assimilated to the tense stems in -ā; but no other parts of the verb survived in use, except the noun avad refusal, reluctance. Derived direct from baw was the verb boda- 'ban, prohibit'.
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: The verb ava-
on: December 28, 2004 11:36

Though this became a verbal stem, it is probably derived from a primitive negative element, or exclamation, such as *ba 'no!' It did not, however, deny facts, but always expressed concern or will; that is, it expressed refusal to do what others might wish or urge, or prohibition of some action by others.


You're right, of course, Naneth. I had forgotten about that point in War of the Jewels. I do, however, have some comments in reply to a couple of other points in Bellenion's post (see below).
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: The verb ava-
on: December 28, 2004 11:56
Well... _gelir_ is a noun, not an adjective.


On what do you base that assumption? Though it is used as a proper name, there is no reason to think that gelir is not the normal Sindarin adjective for 'merry'. Merry's name in English is an adjective. Sam's name in Sindarin (and in English, for that matter) is made of an adjective preceded by an adverb (per 'half' + sael 'wise'). Frodo Gamgee's first name in Sindarin is composd of two adjectives (iaur 'old' + sael 'wise'). In fact, in A Gateway To Sindarin, David Salo supposes that gelir is an adjective (not that I agree with everything in David's book ... in fact, there are several things with which I strongly disagree.)

I also think negative morpheme as _ava-_ would trigger mutation

As pointed out by Naneth, this is rather a moot point in that ava- cannot be used in the way I suggested. Be that as it may, ava- is shown to cause lenition of the modified verb. I see no reason to suppose that a predicate adjective's initial consonant would lenite.
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email