Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Languages » Sindarin Discussion » What did Legolas speak?
Author Topic:
Lefaye
Council Member
Posts: 6
Send Message
Avatar
Post What did Legolas speak?
on: December 29, 2004 10:33
I always thought elves from mirkwookd spoke Sindarin, but then i thought i caught him speaking Quenya in the movie... can someone enlighten me as to what he speaks? oh, and i was a little confused about Elrond, also. Rivendell speaks Quenya, right?

..i'm confused.
mirkwood_archer_she_elf
Council Member
Posts: 3
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 29, 2004 10:49
Well, you know more than I do. I have no clue as to what any of the Elves speak. I'm confused, as well. Can you teach me Elvish, anyone out there???!??!?? :feedback:
Thank you...
Fíriel
Enethdan Edhellen
Posts: 1369
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 29, 2004 01:01
No... As far as I'm aware, Legolas speaks mainly Sindarin in the movies (unless I'm forgetting something), and while elves like Elrond would know Quenya as well, I believe that Rivendelll speaks mainly Sindarin, albeit with strong Quenya influences.

Mirkwood Archer, if you like, you can begin studying Sindarin OR Quenya via the Language Workbooks that COE provides, and which can be found in the Languages section of COE.
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 29, 2004 01:21
In fact, at the time of the War of the Rings, all the Elves of Middle-earth spoke Sindarin. Quenya was reserved for matters of lore among the High Elves and the Edain. The Silvan Elves had adopted Sindarin by that time, as had the Noldorin Exiles, and the Sindar that survived the Wars of Beleriand had no opportunity to learn Quenya. And considering Thranduil's feelings toward the Noldor, I seriously doubt that Legolas would be able to even understand, let alone speak, Quenya.
Aelgas
Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 29, 2004 02:24
I hesitate to disagree, as a relative newcomer, but in one of Tolkien's letters ([347] To Richard Jeffrey) he alludes to the fact that more men knew and spoke Sindarin and Quenya than did those of Elven-kind that remained in Middle Earth.

Tolkien implies that this is due to sheer 'weight of numbers' but I've always considered that it also implies that the majority of remaining Elves after the War of Wrath were Laiquendi or Avari. Isn't it likely that the majority of those in Lórien and certainly Mirkwood, being far east of Beleriand and east of later Eregion were not native Sindarin speakers... excepting the royal house of Thranduil and of course the influx from Eregion that came with Galadríel?

To my mind Sindarin in the movie acts as a 'lingua franca' amongst the educated or noble elite when dealing with races who didn't/wouldn't speak Westron... with Quenya positioned as the tongue used by scholars and historians.

Imladris is a different matter, being a house of lore as well as the last bastion of Elven superiority west of the Misty Mountains. IMHO Quenya would be much more commonly understood in Rivendell.

I'll have to listen through the movies again but I'd be very surprised if Legolas spoke any Quenya... it had been a dead language, i.e. not learned in childhood, even amongst the elves in Middle Earth, for around 6000 years. I'd conjecture that Legolas was fluent in Sindarin (therefore speaking it throughout the movie) but amongst the people of Mirkwood he spoke a different Elvish tongue.

[Edited on 30/12/2004 by Aelgas]
Malinornë
FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & Eldameldë
Posts: 1205
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 30, 2004 06:26
Tolkien implies that this is due to sheer 'weight of numbers' but I've always considered that it also implies that the majority of remaining Elves after the War of Wrath were Laiquendi or Avari. Isn't it likely that the majority of those in Lórien and certainly Mirkwood, being far east of Beleriand and east of later Eregion were not native Sindarin speakers... excepting the royal house of Thranduil and of course the influx from Eregion that came with Galadríel?


I agree with you that the native language in Lórien and Mirwood would originally have been Silvan, rather than Sindarin, but as I interpret the information given in "Unfinished Tales", by the time of LOTR, the Silvan language had nearly ceased to exist. Thus it seems to me that Sindarin would be the general language among the wood-elves too. But, as you no doubt know, "Unfinished Tales" is full of contradictions.

As for movie Legolas, he even used Quenya, at least on the soundtrack, where part of his lament for Gandalf is sung in this ancient language.

[Edited on 30/12/2004 by Malinornë]
Lefaye
Council Member
Posts: 6
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 30, 2004 11:14
Okay, perhaps i am wrong about seeing Legolas speak Quenya. ...actually, now that i think of it, the part where i thought it was Quenya was when he was talking to Aragorn before the battle at Helm's Deep, ( "there are fear in their eyes, they are all going to die, etc", aragorn "then i shall die as one of them!"). I thought that since aragorn was raised in rivendell that he spoke quenya, and only that. that was a bit naive of me....but thanks for clearing things up, guys! it's much appreciated.
Fíriel
Enethdan Edhellen
Posts: 1369
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 30, 2004 12:46
actually, now that i think of it, the part where i thought it was Quenya was when he was talking to Aragorn before the battle at Helm's Deep, ( "there are fear in their eyes, they are all going to die, etc", aragorn "then i shall die as one of them!"). I thought that since aragorn was raised in rivendell that he spoke quenya, and only that. that was a bit naive of me....


The entire Helms Deep sequence would have been in Sindarin (with maybe some Old English as well) -- unless there's something on the soundtrack that I missed (thanks Malinornë!). I would think that Aragorn would know some Quenya though, being raised as the future King of Gondor -- his throne name (Elessar) is Quenya, and he does recite Elendil's Oath, so presumably he knows what that means, at least.

[Edited on 30/12/2004 by Fíriel]
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: December 30, 2004 03:56
The status of Sindarin vs. Silvan is a bit more uncertain than I implied in my post. We are told in Unfinished Tales that by the year TA 1981 Silvan was dying out in Lórien. The War of the Ring began in TA 3018. Based on this information coupled with the footnote in App. E, I think that it's safe to assume that Silvan was no longer a spoken tongue in Lórien. Unfinished Tales gives us conflicting evidence about the state of language in northern Mirkwood. On p. 256 it is written that Sindarin was used only in the house and family of Thranduil (that would,of course, include Legolas), yet on the very next page we read that Sindarin had completely replaced Silvan, like it had in Lórien. The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien adds to the confusion. Tolkien wrote that the Elves of Thranduil's realm spoke a language or dialect related to Sindarin rather than actual Sindarin. Also in Letters we find that Legolas's name is in a Sindarin dialect peculiar to the Elves of the woodland (the form in standard Sindarin would be Laegolas). So we really don't have a firm answer as to whether or not Sindarin was spoken in Mirkwood. What we do know is that Sindarin was the language of daily discourse in Lórien (though spoken with an accent), Imladris, Hithlond and by some Edain, especially in Gondor. I suspect that the Dúnedain Rangers of the North probably spoke Sindarin as well. Quenya was not a spoken language in Middle-earth after the Fall of Gondolin. Though Galadriel obviously knew Quenya - unsurprisingly, since she had lived in Aman - I find it odd that the Silvan Elves of Lothlórien sang Quenya lyrics in their lament for Gandalf in the film. As far as Aragorn, he undoubtedly knew some Quenya ... perhaps quite a lot of it. But it was not the language he spoke growing up in Imladris. He was destined to be the King of Gondor and Arnor; it was only fitting that he study the language of lore and ceremony.

Wasn't this an epic saga of a post? :dizzy:

[Edited on 31/12/2004 by Uialdil_i_degilbor]
gwendeth
Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 04, 2005 02:33
At the risk of throwing a cat amongst the pigeons... :evil: I was looking something up in Appendix D of LoTR (I have a book with all 3 in one) about the elven calendar. However, in regards to Thranduil banning all Quenya, I found this notation on the names of months where JRRT lists them for both Quenya and Sindarin:

In the Westron the Qyenya names of the months were usually retained as the Latin names are not widel used in alien languages. They were [list of Quenya month names]. The Sindarin names (used only by the Dunedain) were: [list of Sindarin month names].


The parentheses are JRRT's, I just 'bolded' it for ease of reference.

An interesting point to ponder, then is - heh - would Thranduil have also abandoned the Quenya month names - or used Sindarin (or Silvan, perhaps?) names for months? This 'aside' by the Great Master would seem to indicate otherwise in regards to Sindarin...

Opinions/thoughts? :angel:

gwendeth

EDIT: That would also seem to be a 'notation' for we who like to translate: if we have a month name - we shouldn't use the Sindarin ones if we want to be as 'accurate' as we are able with Elvish and what the elves would have used/said/written. No?

[Edited on 4/3/2005 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Ithildin55
Council Member
Posts: 92
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 04, 2005 05:32
Gwendeth, I had noticed that reference too, and I interpreted it that among Westron speaking peoples all retained the Quenya month names, except the Dúnedain, who used the Sindarin ones. Sindarin speaking Elves would use the Sindarin month names.

My two cents,
Ithildin *(
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 04, 2005 05:51
I never heard that Thranduil actually banned the use of Quenya, but living among the Silvan Elves, I doubt that his subjects had any knowledge of Quenya. Thingol, on the other hand, did ban Quenya in his realm.

Now about the calendar: I don't know that the Elves actually used Narvinyë, Nénimë, Súlimë, etc. In the explanation of the calendar of Imladris, the only divisions mentioned were tuilë (ethuil), lairë (laer), yávië (iavas), quellë (firith) [also known as lasse-lanta or narbeleth], hrívë (rhîw) and coirë (echuir). Tolkien tells us that these divisions might be considered short seasons or long months. The twelve months roughly corresponding to ours are not mentioned until after he described the calendars of Gondor, the Shire and Bree. Tolkien stated in Add. D, "It seems clear that the Eldar in Middle-earth, who had, as Samwise remarked, more time at their disposal, reckoned in long periods..." I think it might be possible that the Eldar had no need for shorter divisions of the loa, but the Dúnedain, who had shorter life-spans, did. Possibly Narwain, Nínui, Gwaeron, etc. were specifically Mannish terms not used by the Elves. At least, that's my theory.

[Edited on 4/3/2005 by Uialdil_i_degilbor]
EiamArwen
Council Member
Posts: 37
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 07, 2005 01:31
If memory serves me well, being the prince of Mirkwood, his parents were not the same elvish race...as in the Simllmaril books, he does speak Sindarin, as in the books on the war of the ring, but in the movies he does indeed speak Quenya, for the script writers thought it would be easier to keep all the same language, to cease confusion of the different races....
gwendeth
Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 07, 2005 02:23
Actually, no, most of the Elvish spoken in the movie was - for lack of a better term, 'Movie Sindarin'.
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
LadyGrey
Council Member
Posts: 63
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 09, 2005 09:30
Suilad,
I was reading this tread and saw someone had mentioned a soundtrack with Legolas' Lament for Gandalf on it. I don't remember my soundrack having this on it. Can someone tell me what this is??? Please? Le Hannon!

-LadyGrey
Malinornë
FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & Eldameldë
Posts: 1205
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 09, 2005 10:46
LadyGrey, sorry about the confusion. The lament for Gandalf is part of the track with the title "Lothlórien", on the soundtrack for FOTR.
Ranwen
Council Member
Posts: 34
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 10, 2005 01:34
So far as I know, the lament for Gandalf was a part in Quenya but also a part in Sindarin.

And if I remember it well, it was Thingol that bann Quenya from his realm after hearing what the Nodors had done. After that the normal langues of the Elves became Sindarin.
Quenya was only used in the historical things.

(don't be angry if I'm wrong)
Aelgas
Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 11, 2005 03:38
Just to add to the earlier confusion . In The Fellowship Chapter VI (apologies for the lack of a page reference due to different copies) as Legolas is about to climb a tree on the edge of LothLórien he is commanded to get down. There then follows this paragraph:

'There was a sound of soft laughter over their heads, and then a clear voice spoke in an elven-tongue. Frodo could understand little of what was said, for the speech that the Silvan folk east of the mountains used among themselves was unlike that of the West. Legolas looked up and answered in the same language.' [my italics]

'unlike that of the West'... the 'same language'...

Could this be more than dialect?

[EDIT]BTW, it suddenly occurs to me that TA 1981 to TA3018 is only 1037 years... not that much time to an elf and maybe not long enough for an elven-tongue fully to die out, possibly?[/EDIT]

[Edited on 12/3/2005 by Aelgas]
Uialdil_i_degilbor
Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: What did Legolas speak?
on: March 12, 2005 10:46
Tolkien actually addresses what language the Elves of Lórien spoke and why Frodo couldn't understand them in the first footnote of App. F: "In Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin. This 'accent' and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo (as is pointed out in The Thain's Book by a commentator of Gondor)."
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email