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sindarinelvish

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Posts: 471
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Correct Resources?
on: January 08, 2005 02:28

Since I have been properly set down for my "blue" error and told the COE dictionary and Dragonflame are incorrect sources, and since A Gateway to Sindarin has been condemned as an invalid resource, I'm wonderin' here, what a poor student trying to learn the language should use as reference?

A little help?

SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.

FÃriel

Enethdan Edhellen
Posts: 1369
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 08, 2005 02:54

the COE dictionary and Dragonflame are incorrect sources, and since A Gateway to Sindarin has been condemned as an invalid resource

I don't have 'A Gateway to Sindarin' yet (Naneth can probably comment more on the book), but I've corresponded with a few people that do, and from my understanding, it's not riddled throughout with errors, but more so misleading in some parts -- sometimes theories are presented as facts, or Sindarin corpus has been presented in an altered form (some would say with an agenda in mind). However, I'm sure many of Salo's theories have merit, so as long the book's read with an open and questioning mind, I'm sure many valid facts can be gleaned.

As for COE's and Hisweloke's dictionaries being incorrect; besides the usual transcription errors and typos, I'm sure the authors of both have tried to be as accurate as possible. However, Dragon Flame in particular is bound to have many words disputed by others, since many of its words are either extrapolated from compounds (e.g. gwaen), or updated from its Noldorin equivalents, so in the other thread, Uialdil just had a slightly different opinion of how Noldorin lhûn would result in mature Sindarin. In no way should you feel set down over that.

I suppose what I'm trying to say in my usual long-winded way is that ideally, the best resources would be Tolkien's works themselves, such as the Etymologies. However, I guess that in reality one also has to be aware of theories attached to anything concerning Sindarin, 'tis all. Subscribing to Vinyar Tengwar always means you're one of the first to learn of new Sindarin discoveries and developments, and Elfling provides lively discussion as always. We're not too bad either.

Elrohir_TarAmandil

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Posts: 75
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 08, 2005 07:54

I think it depends on how 'orthodox' you want to be. If you are shooting for hardcore orthodox Sindarin, you should understand that there are somethings Tolkien just didn't make a word for. Or you can make an educated decision on what is acceptable by; studying as much as you can, asking questions, and practice. Then, maybe, try creating words of your own by using root words [which would seem impossible by some, or most]. Sometime take a look at the Indo-european root words. Here's an example: ghend- important derivatives are get, forget, guess, prison, apprehend, comprehend, surprise, and prey. But, I think you would need to be a linquist to do that and a learned one at that.
Anyway, try to have fun with this. And another thing. Look at how meanings of words in our own language change [like how hiphop has changed the meanings of words and Snoop is making his own words and lots of people use them or at least understand what is being conveyed].

dope, fresh, def = good
wack = bad

and uber is being put infront of everything these days.

[Edited on 1/11/2005 by Elrohir_TarAmandil]

passionelf

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Posts: 32
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 09, 2005 03:26

foshizzle manizzle lol

Naneth

Elvish 101 Moderator
Posts: 568
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 09, 2005 04:10

Since I have been properly set down for my "blue" error and told the COE dictionary and Dragonflame are incorrect sources

Hmmm .... where did you hear these are incorrect sources ?? They might each have a few mistakes in them, since no one is perfect, but they are a couple of the best dictionaries on the web.

A Gateway to Sindarin, as Fíriel has mentioned, has a bunch of theories and constructed words that are not always presented as such, as is much of T Renk's course. I think that book is best to read AFTER you learn a bit about the language, so you can distinguish for yourself what is attested and what is not.

Uialdil_i_degilbor

Elvish Scribe
Posts: 380
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 09, 2005 07:43

Since I have been properly set down for my "blue" error and told the COE dictionary and Dragonflame are incorrect sources, and since A Gateway to Sindarin has been condemned as an invalid resource, I'm wonderin' here, what a poor student trying to learn the language should use as reference?

I'm sorry if you inferred from my post that I was trying to 'set you down'; that was not my intent. DragonFlame is, hands down, the best online Sindarin dictionary. There are a few words on it that are Noldorin words that haven't been upgraded to Sindarin forms by applying proper etymological rules; lhûn is one of them. I wouldn't have even mentioned it except that we have evidence to the contrary that the Sindarin (as opposed to Noldorin) form is actually luin. You will notice that A Taste of Elvish lists it as luin in its Sindarin vocabulary as well. As far as A Gateway to Sindarin goes, much of it is good information, and much of the theory is good, but it must be told that it should not be taken as gospel truth; it's not. Carl Hostetter has pointed out some serious flaws in it. Still, it is a book of some merit, and it does point out the etymological rules of assimilation and such quite well. It is not a worthless resource.

Again, I will apologise if you viewed my post as a flame against you are the sources discussed. That was not my purpose.

[Edited on 9/1/2005 by Uialdil_i_degilbor]

Aelfwine

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Posts: 67
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 09, 2005 08:06

[A Gateway to Sindarin] is not a worthless resource.

Quite right. Alas, it's also not nearly as useful as it could have been with just a little extra effort to cite sources and to carefully and consistently distinguish what is actually attested from what is fabricated.

[Edited on 9/1/2005 by Aelfwine]

Elrohir_TarAmandil

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Posts: 75
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RE: Correct Resources?
on: January 09, 2005 08:24