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Aino
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Post poetry
on: February 02, 2005 08:13
I was wondering... What is known about "technical" features of Elvish poetry? (I mean metric, rhyme etc.). I remember that something was said in LotR about the "ann-thennath" but there wasn't much of an explanation.
dirk_math
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 02, 2005 10:08
As both languages, Sindarin and Quenya, have stress patterns that can be compared (not to say: are identical to) Latin and Ancient Greek, I suggest that for poetry one should use the principle of the hexameter.
But when we look at Namárië Tolkien himself doesn't use it.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Aelgas
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 03, 2005 02:59
There are detailed notes to Namárië in RGEO, I believe.

The three Elvish verse modes I know of are:

Ann-thennath: eight syllable iambic quatrains

Example:

The leaves were long the grass was green
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering....

Minlamad thent or ... estent – Alliterative verse form but that’s all the detail I have.

Example:

For Turgon towering     in terrible anger
A pathway clove him     with his pale sword blade
Out of that slaughter     yea, his swath was plain
Through the hosts of Hell     like hay that lieth....


Linnod – single line of matching halves each made up thus: a trochee, a dactyl, a trochee

Example (the most famous one!)

Onen i estel edain, ú-chebin estel anim
Aino
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 06, 2005 10:36
Thank you for your help! I'm afraid I haven't got RGEO, I'll have to look for it as soon as possible. Anyway it actually seems very sensible that a quantitative metric should be used in Elvish languages, since there are long and short vowels like in Latin (and the rules for accents are very much the same, now that I think of it). So do you think that vowels which are followed by two consonants are to be considered long for this purpose, even if they don't carry an accent signalling a long vowel? I was trying to work out the pattern for Gilraen's linnod but I'm not sure how it works.
Aelgas
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 08, 2005 01:24
It's debatable but I consider metre in verse to be commanded by stress rather than duration, although it's hard not to stress long vowels or double consonants in Elvish.

Gilraen's linnod does match the poetic metre given, but I think parts are questionable, personally. edain to me is unstressed stressed not stressed unstressed . Plus, I would imagine a negative prefix to carry stress making chebin two unstressed syllables. If we trust the great man though, it gives quite an informative idea of a Sindarin 'lilt'. Inclining me to think that if one spoke Sindarin with a Welsh or late mediaeval Welsh accent one would not be far wrong (and that would not be surprising given Sindarin's inspiration), IMO.

Ónen i-estel edain, ú-chebin estel anim
_ . / _ . . / _ . / _ ./ _ . . / _ .
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 08, 2005 04:03
edain to me is unstressed stressed not stressed unstressed .


If this is the case, it is contrary to the ordinary rules of syllable stress in Sindarin. Edain be stressed on the first syllable.

Plus, I would imagine a negative prefix to carry stress making chebin two unstressed syllables.


I wouldn't. Tolkien used the hyphen (or sometimes a dot) to separate elements that would ordinarily change the natural stress pattern. Therefore, Gil-galad = gil-GA-lad, whereas without the hyphen (Gilgalad) the rules of syllable stress would dictate that it be pronounced as Gil-ga-lad. By the same token, ú is separated from the rest of the word by a hyphen: ú-CHE-bin.
Aino
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 09, 2005 04:43
I am afraid I feel a bit confused. I thought that in poetry you can
- either use the "natural" stress of words to build a rythmic pattern (this is what happens in most modern languages, I think);
- or, if the language you are using shows a strong difference between "long" and "short" vowels, build a pattern based upon the "length" of syllables; as a consequence, the way you stress words when reading a poem might possibly be different from the "usual" stress (the example I am familiar with is Latin hexameter, like "Arma virumque cano Troiae qui primus ab oris" etc).

Of course one could also forget about stress/duration patterns, but I believe that's not the type of poetry we are talking about.

Does Sindarin (and/or Quenya) fit the first or second description? Or is it something in-between? If Gilraen's linnod matches the linnod pattern, then the last syllable of "chebin" should be stressed (if I understand correctly), which means that one is not supposed to follow the usual stress rules when reading poetry...
Aelgas
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Post RE: poetry
on: February 09, 2005 01:44
If Gilraen's linnod matches the linnod pattern, then the last syllable of "chebin" should be stressed (if I understand correctly), which means that one is not supposed to follow the usual stress rules when reading poetry...


Precisely the point I meant Aino. Ú-cheBIN breaks the pattern, surely.

EDain is undoubtedly correct, Uialdil... but i'll say in my defence that I've heard it the other way, e.g. on Martin Shaw's rendition of The Silmarillion, wherein his pronunciation sounds generally accurate to me, but I'll cheerfully be corrected by those with greater experience.

As to the stress or duration argument, yes, both ways count, I just happen to think that stress takes precedence. Latin hexameter does make a point of duration, you're right, I remember getting tongue-tied over Ovid

Where Elvish is concerned I guess we just don't know and can enjoy debating. All poetry take liberties with language and in any case one would have to allow Tolkien 'creator's licence'
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