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Beren_Elaran
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Post Superlative
on: February 25, 2005 08:34
I have just read through Lesson Nine of the Sindarin course and there is no mention of dropping the last element of a final diphthong when forming the superlative of adjectives, or of otherwise monophthongizing the final sound. The only attested example of a superlative form is supposedly _Iarwain_, but although monophthongization occurs here it may not be valid for other adjectives in modern Sindarin. I read on another thread that _Iarwain_ might not even be superlative at all. Meanwhile, I am reading "Pedin Edhellen" and Thorsten Renk says that the final element of the diphthong is dropped in modern Sindarin....Now I am very confused :dizzy:.

So, is monophthongization recognized as "correct" Sindarin? Is the ending -wain even recognized as a superlative form among Sindarin communities?

Please help, I'm getting dizzy...
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 05:44
Thorsten Renk says that the final element of the diphthong is dropped in modern Sindarin

This is not true in all cases and is certainly not true in cases of AI. AI usually remains the same in final syllables. In other syllables, AI changes to the vowel of the syllable's original root.

While there is conversation about "-wain" possibly coming from "gwain", the word "iarwain" is attested as meaning "oldest". So yes, "-wain" is recognised as a superlative form at this time.

there is no mention of dropping the last element of a final diphthong when forming the superlative of adjectives, or of otherwise monophthongizing the final sound.

Don't change "-wain". Like I said above, AI in final syllables almost always remains AI. There will be more on forming compounds in a lesson to be posted in the near future.
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 06:20
Le hannon! That was very enlightening.
thorsten
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 10:33
> Thorsten Renk says that the final element of the diphthong is dropped in modern Sindarin....

I have actually revised that suggestion - I think (and wrote in Pedin Edhellen 2.0) that _-wain_ has nothing to do with the superlative at all.

Bertrand Bellet has argued convincingly in Lambengolmor message 642 that the form _Iarwain_ 'Oldest' would rather be akin to _Narwain_ 'new fire, January' and translate literally as 'old-young, ageless', a fitting description of Tom Bombadil.

Thus, my current suggestion is to form superlatives in Sindarin as they are apparently formed in Quenya - using an intensified adjective in a genitive construction, e.g. _athanc in edain_ 'exceedingly strong among the men > strongest of men'.

I apologize for the confusion the earlier version has caused!

> While there is conversation about "-wain" possibly coming from "gwain", the word "iarwain" is attested as meaning "oldest". So yes, "-wain" is recognised as a superlative form at this time.

That assumes that Tolkien gave a literal translation of the name. I had the impression that Tom Bombadil actually has been in Tolkien's ideas a long time, and _Iarwain ben-Adar_ may well date a long way back. But I see no need to repeat Bertrands arguments.

So, while I agree that it is _possible_ that _-wain_ may be a superlative suffix, I see no compelling reason to actually assume that it was a superlative suffix in LOTR SIndarin. Notice Helge Fauskanger's very careful wording:

'It so happens that we may also have the superlative form of iaur "old"; during the Council of Elrond, the Sindarin name of Tom Bombadil was given as Iarwain, meaning "Eldest". The ending -wain would seem to be the superlative suffix.' (Sindarin, the Noble Tongue)

> In other syllables, AI changes to the vowel of the syllable's original root.

Etymologically, it's actually the other way round - usually an _ei_ develops into _ai_ in a final syllable but is preserved or shortened to _e_ elsewhere, cf. _andaith_ 'sign' (LOTR App. E) but _teitha-_ 'write' (LOTR) (where the original _e_ from TEK isn't restored by the way).


[Edited on 26/2/2005 by thorsten]
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 10:51
Agreed. I see very little evidence for -wain as a superlative. At the very least not an active one. Even if -wain did exist at one point I doubt that it would still be active in the language.

EDIT: can't type

[Edited on 2/26/2005 by Gildor-Inglorion]
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 12:57
I think "oldest" and "ageless" are two very different things. "Ageless" can either mean "not growing old or showing the effects of age" or "having no beginning or end".

Here are some quotes championing "oldest":

1.) In conversation to Frodo at Tom's house:
"Who are you, Master?" he (Frodo) asked.

"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am.

2.) In Rivendell, Elrond has this to say:
"I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than old. That was then not his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside."

Besides those quotes, "Orald" is Mannish for "very old".

Tolkien used the word "ageless" often to describe the elves, so I think if you mean "ageless" in that way, he would have wrote it about Bombadil also. Instead he writes:

3.) 'Whoa! Whoa! steady there' cried the old man (Bombadil)....

If you mean "ageless" as far as "without beginning or end", I'm very confident Tolkien reserved that description for Eru alone.

................................


While there is conversation about "-wain" possibly coming from "gwain", the word "iarwain" is attested as meaning "oldest". So yes, "-wain" is recognised as a superlative form at this time.

Beren_Elaran's simple question was "Is the ending -wain even recognized as a superlative form among Sindarin communities?"
It is definitely recognized a such, even if there is some wish to disagree on Tolkien's own translation of "Iarwain" and "Orald" and Tom's own word for himself .... "Eldest".
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 01:01
Etymologically, it's actually the other way round - usually an _ei_ develops into _ai_ in a final syllable but is preserved or shortened to _e_ elsewhere, cf. _andaith_ 'sign' (LOTR App. E) but _teitha-_ 'write' (LOTR) (where the original _e_ from TEK isn't restored by the way).


I will give you some examples, for Beren's sake and for other students who are wondering about this:

AI usually changes to the vowel of its original root in syllables other than the last one ....

cair + tan > cirdan .... cair from KIR yields "cir"
fair + cam > forgam .... fair from PHOR yields "for"
hair + cam > hargam .... hair from KHJAR yields "har"




[Edited on 26/2/2005 by Naneth]
thorsten
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 01:28
Right you are!

So the actual situation is even more complex - one has to know if where an _ai_ actually is from - what you quote are the exceptions Helge has categorized as 'ai-plurals' which 'occur where ai in the singular forms ultimately arises from i or e being influenced by y later in the word. ' (Sindarin - the Noble Tongue).

So they actually represent a special development and have (some attested, some speculative) exotic plurals - and of course they behave different in compounds from the 'normal' way of having an _ai_ somewhere - which, as I said, stems from an earlier _ei_ turning into _ai_ in the final syllable - which cannot take place in compounds.
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 05:51
My quote:
AI usually changes to the vowel of its original root in syllables other than the last one ....


Helge's quote:
it seems that the diphthong ai is normally unchanged in the plural. However, in one small group of words, ai becomes either i (usually long î) or more rarely ý in the plural.


So no, I'm not quoting Helge here because his description is a bit different from mine.
Helge only mentions the AI words from original root I (no mention of the other forms), but this may be because he is talking about plural forms of monosyllabic words, not compounds.

I am not explaining what happens in plurals and this is not exotic, it is the normal way of forming these words. I am showing Beren what happens in compounds .... which was his original question.
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 26, 2005 06:09
Well, I think we need to consider that "old-young" is not necessarily synonymous with "everlasting, ageless." It seems to me that it may be a very meaningful way of showing Tom's dual nature.

For sake of ease I quote here Bertrands post #642 on Lambengolmor:


In 'The Fellowship of the Ring', LR book II, chapter 2 'The Council of
Elrond' we learn the Sindarin name of Tom Bombadil from Elrond's mouth: "Iarwain

Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless".

"Ben-adar" is evidently "without-father", and the first element must be
related to the PQ stem *PEN "lack, be without" that Tolkien refers to in X:375.
Hence we have a prefix or a preposition _pen_ "without", and the whole phrase
_pen-adar_ is taken as an epithet adjective "fatherless", with usual lenition.
But _Iarwain_ is trickier.

Helge K. Fauskanger propounds in his article "Sindarin - the Noble Tongue" on
Ardalambion (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm) that it is a
superlative as Elrond's comment - which is plainly a gloss - suggests. I shall
quote
a brief extract.

....... It so happens that we may also have the superlative form of _iaur_
"old"; during the Council of Elrond, the Sindarin name of Tom Bombadil was given

as _Iarwain_, meaning "Eldest". The ending _-wain_ would seem to be the
superlative suffix. Why not _*Iorwain_, with the normal monophthongization au >
o?
(David Salo answers, "Because you are looking at the direct descendant of a
form like _*Yarwanya_ (perhaps, I am not sure of the exact form of the final
element) in which the vowel was in a closed syllable." I don't feel much wiser,
but then I am not so deep into Eldarin phonology as David is.) .......

Indeed, both Quenya and Old Noldorin show no long vowels before consonant
clusters, and this restriction may well go back to the earliest stages;
reconstructions of primitive words by Tolkien obey this rule, it is certainly
active in
Q and must have been at an early stage of S: compare _nár_ "fire, flame"
(S:435, V:374) and _Nárie_ "June = sunny, fiery" with _Narquelie_ "October =
fire-fading" (LR App. D) and _Narsil_, the name of Elendil's sword (LR passim,
S/435, Letters:426 n° 347), and in S _naur_ "fire, flame" (LR book II ch. 4,
S:435, V:374) and _Nórui_ "June = sunny, fiery" (LR App. D) with _Narbeleth_
"October = fire-fading" (LR App. D), where the alternation au / ó vs. a reflects
an
earlier â vs. a.

In S however, a name like _Círdan_ shows this rule is no longer active, so
_Iarwain_ must be an old word, indeed almost a linguistic fossil. It is also
suggested by the alternation which displays a shift in quality as well as in
quantity, mirroring the change of â > open ô characteristic of the S branch and
that must have occurred early. In the conceptually earlier Noldorin, it was
generally completed already at the Old Noldorin stage as seen in the
Etymologies.

For one thing, it implies that deriving a *living* superlative suffix _-wain_
from Iarwain is venturesome; we have no proof that it would be still
productive. But as a matter of fact I wonder if _Iarwain_ is a superlative at
all...
Actually there is an exactly parallel situation in Narwain "new-fire = January"
vs. naur "flame", which suggest that _-wain_ is more a form of "new" than a
superlative suffix. We have what seems to be a perfect cognate of the S month
name in the Q _Narvinye_.

(Side-note: For historical reasons this cannot be a true common inheritance
from CE: there were neither Sun nor Moon yet in Middle-Earth during the Great
March, so the Eldar cannot have reckoned time in days and months as they were
to do later. More probably the name was coined in parallel in the two languages
by the Noldor: they may have imagined a Q name, then reconstructed what its
CE ancestor would have been, and finally deduced the S form, a bit like what
they did for personal names. Thus, even if historically there was no CE ancestor

of the Q and S names of January, linguistically it is as if there had been
one.)

Hence, in my opinion, _Iarwain_ would rather come from an old copulative
compound _*jarwinjâ_ made of the primitive words _*jârâ_ "old" (Q _yára_, S
_iaur_; S:433, UT:384, V:358, 399) and _*winjâ_ "new" (Q _vinya_, S _#gwain_; LR

App. D, UT:176, X:67, see also V:399 for similar words with a different meaning
in earlier conceptions of Tolkien), with the vowel shortening I alluded to
above. What would be its meaning? Well, "old-new" could be a way to say
"ageless",
which is exactly what Bombadil is, and not too far from "oldest", a
side-sense that could have developed in Sindarin - unless Elrond's gloss was
only an
approximation.

(Side note: I used the treble # to mark that the S word is deduced, it does
not actually occur isolated)

Bertrand Bellet
thorsten
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 27, 2005 03:17
Naneth, I didn't say you were quoting Helge - I meant (my mistake) that you are referring in your examples to a small group of words which Helge lists under 'ai-plurals' - and which have an unusual phonology and therefore... different plurals and bevahe differently in compounds.

However, this is _not_ the regular behaviour of _ai_ in compounds (because usually _ai_ doesn't arise like in this class of words.

> it is the normal way of forming these words. I am showing Beren what happens in compounds ...

Yes, this is the normal way of compound formation for this particular class of 7 or 8 words. It is not the way _ai_ behaves in compouns otherwise, see e.g. _Ereinion_. So for these 7 words it is correct to go back to the root vowel, for all other compounds with _ai_ it is incorrect.
sindarinelvish
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 27, 2005 08:33
Have to poke my apprentice nose in here and open my big mouth :dizzy:

2.) In Rivendell, Elrond has this to say:
"I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than old. That was then not his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless..."


Excellent support for your point re: -wain, Naneth. Who is more of an expert than Elrond in Sindarin? If we assume that Elrond is using Sindarin adjectives here to explain how the Elves named Tom, (which can be supported through "ben (pen)-adar=without father), it seems likely wain as a suffix to iaur is oldest!

Still shallow but dredging with a rusty shovel.

Oops! Just read Gildor's quote from Lambengolmar...question about January. In translating it as Narwain "new fire" am I right that January was not the first month of the new year in ME, but definitely a cold month, perhaps the "coldEST month" which would require the most fire? Hence could Narwain not be translated as "fire-est (most fire)?

Just a thought...I'll go back to the backrow of the lecture hall again, professors.
SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: February 27, 2005 06:14
Thorsten, here is your original post:
Etymologically, it's actually the other way round - usually an _ei_ develops into _ai_ in a final syllable but is preserved or shortened to _e_ elsewhere, cf. _andaith_ 'sign' (LOTR App. E) but _teitha-_ 'write' (LOTR) (where the original _e_ from TEK isn't restored by the way).

I wasn't talking about a change from Noldorin to Sindarin. I was talking about Sindarin words forming into Sindarin compounds. However, even speaking about Noldorin to Sindarin changes, EI being preserved or shortened to E everywhere but these few words is incorrect, but I am not going to keep arguing with you about it. If you want to cite some Sindarin examples (Ereinion is a Noldorin name I think, Gil-galad his Sindarin name), I have no doubt there are probably some exceptions, as in all Tolkien's works. You have to remember also that some names look Sindarin, but could be either Quenya or Noldorin or Ilkorin names. "Teitha-" was never Sindarin "taitha-", so I don't know why you are bringing this into the discussion, as I was explaining what happens to "Sindarin" words with AI, not Noldorin words with EI.

Interesting take on "Narwain" Sindarinelvish !! I think the reason why we know that this is "new sun" or "new fire" is because of it's Quenya name .... Nar + vinyë, which we now definitely know (with the publication of the addendas) means "new sun" or "new fire".

[Edited on 28/2/2005 by Naneth]
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 03, 2005 01:51
Wow, didn't realize there would be so much scholarly debate over this topic .
So...after reading everyone's posts, I have drawn the following conclusions:
1) _-wain_ is almost certainly not a superlative suffix, and is not a living superlative suffix by any means, though people do use it for lack of a better way to form the superlative.
2) There is no rule in Sindarin that long vowels and diphthongs cannot follow a consonant cluster -- therefore there is no reason to monophthongize a final vowel before the -wain ending, other than ai.
3) The diphthong ai, when it occurs in non-final position, becomes ei. In some special cases, the ai changes to the vowel of the original root.
Someone please correct me if I have gotten any of the above wrong!
Aelfwine
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 03, 2005 03:22
Wow, didn't realize there would be so much scholarly debate over this topic


It's why the proper collective term for us is "an argument of linguists".

Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 03, 2005 08:13
The diphthong ai, when it occurs in non-final position, becomes ei. In some special cases, the ai changes to the vowel of the original root.

This is absolutely false Beren. No Sindarin word that has an AI dipthong changes to to EI in "non-final" position. I'm not playing games with words here, as Thorsten is with the words "old Sindarin". By "old Sindarin" he means "Noldorin". But even this change is only seen when the jump is made between the two languages (Noldorin > Sindarin), NOT between a true Sindarin to Sindarin compound construction.

Ereinion was the last "high king of the Noldor". I would imagine Ereinion would be a Noldorin name then. But no matter what origin this name actually is from, I daresay that this is probably the only acception that might be found to the rule "Sindarin AI in non-final syllables in compounds changes to the root vowel of the original word".

** I ask Thorsten to show me more actual Sindarin (and I don't mean "archaic" Sindarin ... HKF's word for "Noldorin") > Sindarin compounds where Sindarin AI changes to EI in non-final syllables than I can show him where Sindarin AI changes to the root vowel. **

[Edited on 4/3/2005 by Naneth]
Aelfwine
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 04, 2005 06:05
fair + cam > forgam .... fair from PHOR yields "for"
This is LR:382 and hence the Noldorin of the Etymologies.

hair + cam > hargam .... hair from KHJAR yields "har"
This is LR:365 and hence the Noldorin of the Etymologies.

cair + tan > cirdan .... cair from KIR yields "cir"


I find this whole part of this discussion to be perplexing. It appears as though it is being proposed and accepted that these compounds are derived from an initial adjectival element (in original *-ya, leading to the observed lenition). But there is no reason to think so, and in fact it is plainly not the case. Each of these compounds simply joins the basic stem (for- < PHOR-, har- < KHJAR-, and cir- < KIR-) to the second element. There is thus no "dropping" of vowels at all: in fact, this is one of the simplest and most straightforward of process (both synchronic and diachronic, depending on how you wish to view it) there is.

Or am I missing something?

Oh, and BTW, now that Vinyar Tengwar 47 has been published, containing the first part of Pat Wynne's presentation and analysis of Tolkien's Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals, I can cite the following to fill in the Sindarin evidence (proper), and showing Tolkien's own explanation of the actual process of compounding from two basic elements (p. 6):

"§3 The Sindarin form maw ['hand'] was an obsolete and poetic word, chiefly preserved in ordinary language in derivatives as maed 'handy, skilful' (= Q. maite), or in old and obscured compounds such as for-vaw [to] forvo 'the right hand, the right side', har-vaw [to] harvo 'the left hand, left side'; molif 'wrist' = 'hand-link': C.E. *mâ-limi, Q., T. málime (Common Eldarin stem LIM 'link, join').

"§4 In Telerin also was no longer in use, and was replaced by C.E. makwâ, except in derivatives or compounds, the same as or similar to those cited for Sindarin: as forma, þarma, 'right-hand', 'left-hand' = Q. forma, hyarma."
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 05, 2005 01:35
It appears as though it is being proposed and accepted that these compounds are derived from an initial adjectival element (in original *-ya, leading to the observed lenition). But there is no reason to think so, and in fact it is plainly not the case.

I think this stems from Tolkien's own words on forming compounds using adjectives .....
"So born 'hot, red' + gil to borñgil; morn 'black' + dor to morñdor; the triconsonantal group then being reduced to rg, rd." Tolkien doesn't say that these words were formed from the basic stem, which would have been easy to say at least for MOR-. Instead he uses the adjective to form the compound. I would think this would be standard practice then ..... this coming from one of his latest letters.
Aelfwine
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 05, 2005 02:28
I would think this would be standard practice then


I'm not saying that compounds are never formed from derived adjectives (e.g. morn-): they plainly are sometimes formed that way. What I'm saying is that in the specific forms under discussion, there is no reason to think that they contain derived adjectives, and in fact there is direct evidence that they do not, in the form of Tolkien own figures showing the derivation of two of them from basic elements.

If you mean to say that there is one and only one way to form such compounds, that being from the derived adjectival stem, then I certainly don't agree with that. It would be completely counter to the rich derivational systems that Tolkien developed to think that; and again, it is counter to Tolkien's own precise explanations of some such compounds.

P.S. I wrote above, "leading to the observed lenition". That should of course be "mutation".

[Edited on 6/3/2005 by Aelfwine]
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 05, 2005 03:42
If you mean to say that there is one and only one way to form such compounds, that being from the derived adjectival stem

No, of course I don't mean that. I just didn't want students thinking they can't form compounds by using adjectives.
Also, I think the basic stem for "left hand" has a Y in it (hyar), so I would rather say the adjective (hair) is being used here, with just the AI changing back to the original root vowel.
Aelfwine
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 05, 2005 03:54
I think the basic stem for "left hand" has a Y in it (hyar),


Not in Sindarin it doesn't. By "basic stem" I do not mean a stem having the same form as the Common Eldarin base. I mean a stem that is not derived (i.e., by the addition of some suffix to the original basic form). A Sindarin basic stem is one that is derived directly from the (unextended) C.E. basic stem, with of course the normal phonological developments that occured in the history of Sindarin applied. Thus, S. for- is a basic stem, derived directly from C.E. PHOR-; and S. har- directly from C.E. KHJAR-.

so I would rather say the adjective (hair) is being used here, with just the AI changing back to the original root vowel.


Well, if so, you disagree with Tolkien himself, who plainly shows these compounds are formed from basic stems:

"for-vaw > forvo 'the right hand, the right side', har-vaw > harvo 'the left hand, left side'"

Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 05, 2005 09:50
"for-vaw > forvo 'the right hand, the right side', har-vaw > harvo 'the left hand, left side'"

So in order to do this, the Sindarin student would not be able to form these compounds derived from basic stems with just Dragonflame. They would need to at least get The Lost Road and then practice extrapolating what the "Sindarin" basic root is from the entries listed.
Aelfwine
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 06, 2005 04:09
I suppose. Either that, or learn how to isolate elements in the words listed in Dragonflame. Being able to isolate elements is a necessary skill for anyone wishing to study or "learn" Tolkien's languages anyways, so might as well start developing it. Besides, doesn't Dragonflame give an etymology for each word? That should make it even easier to spot the underlying elements.



[Edited on 6/3/2005 by Aelfwine]
Naneth
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Post RE: Superlative
on: March 07, 2005 01:37
For simple words like "cair" (ship) or "fair" (right[hand]), a person would not be able to come up with "cir" or "for" using Dragonflame, unless they used the simple method I suggest .... change the AI to the basic root vowel listed in Dragonflame. You will actually come up with the "Sindarin basic stem". To double-check, they could go to The Lost Road and look up entries under KIR and PHOR to make sure they have the "Sindarin basic stem".

[Edited on 7/3/2005 by Naneth]
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