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Beren_Elaran
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Post Hymns to Elbereth
on: March 12, 2005 03:01
Has anyone yet translated the song sung by Gildor and Company in FOTR? Here is my translation of all four stanzas, with Sindarin in italics, English translation in bold, and word-for-word translation in plain type.

Fanuilos! A bereth lim!
A ris thar ennui aearon!
A calad vin i reviam
Mi ennorath i ngelaidh norn!

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
I chin a thûl lín míriel!
Fanuilos! Le linnathon
Ne phalan-ardh thar aearon.

A gîl ned ennin ben-anor
Rend hain na bor dîn thiliol,
Mi nedhyr ‘waerin, ril a lim,
Min cên i loth lín híliol!

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
Sí renim, min i derthiel
Ne phalan-ennor galadhon,
Gil-galad lín or aearon.

Snow-white! O lady clear!
O queen beyond [the] western seas!
O light to-us that wander
In Middle-Earth [of] the trees knotted!

O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
The eyes and breath your [are] shining
Snow-white! to-thee I-sing
In [a] far-land beyond the Sea.

O stars [that] in year without-sun
[She] sowed them with hand her glimmering
Amid pastures windy, bright and clear
We see the flower your shining

O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
Now we-remember, we who have-dwelt
In far-lands [of] great-trees,
Star-light your over [the] Sea.


Snow-white! Snow-white! O lady clear!
O Queen beyond the Western Seas!
O Light to us that wander here
Amid the world of woven trees!

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee
In a far land beyond the Sea.

O stars that in the Sunless Year
With shining hand by her were sown,
In windy fields now bright and clear
We see your silver blossom blown!

O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas.

Hope I didn't make too many blasphemous grammatical errors.
Please tell me if I did anything wrong -- I'm almost sure I made mistakes in the following places:

A calad vin i reviam
Should _reviam_ have the 1st person plural ending on it? Compare this to English, where the verb of the relative clause is not infinitive:
"O light to them that wander here" vs. "O light to him who wanders here"

Ne phalan-ardh thar aearon
Is it correct to use _palan_ in this sense? I thought of using _hae_ instead, but _palan_ fit better rhythmically.

Sí renim, min i derthiel
I know _derthiel_ is a perfective active participle form, and that "we who having dwelt" makes absolutely no sense. But is it possible to stretch the meaning a little to include the passive participle as well? If the verb "to be" is implied, this might work: "we who [are] dwelt" makes little sense in English, but it might be a valid construction in Sindarin, if the perfective active participle could also be the passive...which it's not. Oh, well.

Ne phalan-ennor galadhon
Is _galadhon_ even a word? Tolkien uses it in the name "Caras Galadhon", but I am not sure what the -on ending means. Before I started really studying Sindarin, I thought it might be akin to the Quenya -ion plural genetival ending, but that is obviously not the case, unless it is a very archaic form. Possibly it means "great", as in _aear_ "ocean" vs. _aearon_ "great ocean". I would love to get some other opinions on this word.
:feedback:



[Edited on 13/3/2005 by Beren_Elaran]
PhantomElf
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: March 15, 2005 02:48
Has anyone yet translated the song sung by Gildor and Company in FOTR?
Yes Here is a link to a translation by Taramiluiel.
http://members.cox.net/taramiluiel/song_wandering_elves.htm

You can also listen to Tara sing it from this link.
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: March 17, 2005 03:53
Thanks for the link, PhantomElf. I liked how Tara and I both sneakily "borrowed" the line "i chîn a thûl lín míriel" from David Salo . There were also a few words and phrases which I found rather puzzling/enlightening. For example:

> A Fanuilos!  Linnam allen

_allen_ is of course constructed from _an_ "to" and a pronoun _len_. There's no pronoun _len_ in my dictionary though. Is this a reconstructed word, or is it an attested pronoun that somehow managed to escape being put into the CoE wordlists?

> Calad ammen i reviar

Compare this line to my translation "A calad vin i reviam". Tara's translation is probably correct -- I forgot that when you have a pronoun separate from the verb, you use the personless form of the verb. Presumably either _ammen_ or _vin_ could be used as the pronoun here -- both are listed under the entry for "us" in the dictionary. Ammen would probably be more suitable because it means "to us" (an + men) rather than just "us".

So...here is my revised translation:

Fanuilos! A bereth lim!
A ris thar annui aearon!
A calad vin i reviar
Mi ennorath i ngelaidh norn!

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
I chin a thûl lín míriel!
Fanuilos! Le linnathon
Ne phalan-ardh thar aearon.

A gîl ned ennin ben-anor
Rend hain na bor dîn thiliol,
Mi nedhyr ‘waerin, ril a lim,
Min cên i loth lín híliol!

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
Sí renim, min i dariel
Ne phalan-ennor galadhon,
Gil-galad lín or aearon.

I actually like _dariel_ better than the grammatically dubious _derthiel_ in the last stanza. It gives the impression that the elves are not settled in Middle-Earth but are only remaining there for a time, and will soon travel back across the sea.
Naneth
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: March 21, 2005 08:23
This is very nice and original, even using different phrases than Tolkien did. Here are a few of my suggestions:

Fanuilos! A bereth lim!

A ris thar annui aearon!
>>>> I would use "athan" for "beyond"; rather put "annui" after "aearon", like Tolkien does with "mbair annui".

A calad vin i reviar
>>>> I would use "ammen" here for "to/for us"

Mi ennorath i ngelaidh norn!
>>>> You need to have your adjective match "ngelaidh" in plurality, so "nyrn".

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!

I chin a thûl lín míriel!

Fanuilos! Le linnathon
>>>> "we sing" would be "linnam"

Ne phalan-ardh thar aearon.
>>>>> I would still use "mi" for "in" here as well; instead of using the adverb "palan", how about "mi ardh chaeron thar-aearon", as "thar-" seems to be a prefix.

A gîl ned ennin ben-anor
>>>> I would just capitalize "Anor"

Rend hain na bor dîn thiliol,
>>>> I would use passive voice "rennin"; "na baur" for "by hand" ... the au changes to o in compounds, but wouldn't here

Mi nedhyr ‘waerin, ril a lim,

Min cên i loth lín híliol!
>>>> for "we see" I would use "cenim"

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!

Sí renim, min i dariel
>>>> for "we who dwell" you might want to follow the example Tolkien gives us in the Lord's Prayer ..... "we who forgive" > "mín i gohenam" and write "mín i dortham"

Ne phalan-ennor galadhon,
>>>>> Mi ennor chaeron di-elaidh

Gil-galad lín or aearon.
>>>> for "starlight" I would use a regular compound "gilgalad", because "gil-galad" means "star of brilliance"; for "on" I would use "bo" and for "western seas" you could use "Gaer Annui" to keep the rhythm.
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: March 22, 2005 04:20
Thanks, Naneth! Here's Revision #3, with comments:

Fanuilos! A bereth lim!
Ris athar aearon annui

Does "annui" _have_ to follow "aearon"? It puts the stressed syllables in the wrong place for the meter of the poem.

A calad ammen i reviar

Once again, too many syllables for one line! If the relative pronoun "i" was removed, it could work. But you can't do that. Or can you??

Mi ennorath i ngelaidh nyrn

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
I chin a thûl lín míriel!
Fanuilos! Le linnathon

I kept "le linnathon" for a couple of reasons. #1, I'm not trying to make a super-literal translation, and "le linnathon" works better with the meter and rhyme. #2, this whole line is attested in FOTR, so we can be 100% sure it's bona fide LOTR Sindarin.

Mi chaeron ardh thar-aearon

Once again, an adjective before a noun for poetic reasons.

A gîl ned ennin ben-Anor
Hain rennin na baur thiliol

I think it is more correct to have the object before the verb anyway, as in "le linnathon".

Mi nedhyr ‘waerin, ril a lim,
Min cên i loth lín híliol!

"Min cên" isn't wrong, is it? It works better for the meter of the poem because it allows for the stress on the 2nd syllable of the line.

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
Sí renim, min i dariel

This last line is roughly "Now we-remember, we who [are] remaining". It works better with the meter and I think better conveys the sense that the elves will only stay in Middle-Earth for a short time, and that many of them have already passed over the sea [see my post above].

Mi ennor chaeron di-'elaidh
Gilgalad lín bo aearon
Naneth
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: March 26, 2005 11:43
Once again, too many syllables for one line! If the relative pronoun "i" was removed, it could work. But you can't do that. Or can you??

>>>> I would rather take out "a" (oh) than the relative pronoun. Tolkien was rather scrupulous about using the dative when appropriate. The only reason he doesn't in "A tiro nin" is because he translates this as "O guard me" (RGEO).

I think it is more correct to have the object before the verb anyway, as in "le linnathon".

>>>> Actually, "le linnathon" is a verb and an "indirect object". In "ú-chebin estel anim" we see both the direct AND indirect objects after the verb, so I don't think we can say which position is "more correct" for sentence word order. Either way would probably be ok.

"Min cên" isn't wrong, is it?

>>>> Yes, this form of the verb can't work for "we see". In VT47, we see how Tolkien must have agonized over the fact that he had the wrong tense of the verb (3rd person) in the sentence "Im Narvi hain echant" and tried to explain it away like this: " ... im Narvi hain echant cannot = 'I, Narvi' since verb is 3 pers. It must mean 'It was Narvi himself (sc. it was verily Narvi) who made them'."
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: May 08, 2005 01:25
Hmm... okay, I hope I've got it technically correct this time:

Fanuilos! A bereth lim!
Ris athar annui aearon
Calad ammen i reviar
Mi ennorath i-ngelaidh nyrn.

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
I chin a thûl lín míriel!
Fanuilos! Le linnathon
Mi chaeron ardh thar-aearon.

A gil ned ennin ben-Anor
Hain rennin na baur thiliol
Mi nedhyr 'waerin, ril a lim,
Cenim i loth lín híliol

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
Si renim, min i dariel
Mi ennor chaeron hen di-yrn
Gilgalad lín bo aearon.

The only problem I have with this is that the stress falls on the wrong syllable a lot of the time. Tolkien stuck religiously to correct stress in A Elbereth! and Namarië, so were the Elves very rigid about stressing the right syllable? We English speakers generally are, but in some languages, like Spanish, words in songs are often stressed on the wrong syllable to accomodate to accomodate the meter.
Elrohir_TarAmandil
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Post RE: Hymns to Elbereth
on: May 08, 2005 05:40
This may be an overly simplistic way of saying this but, poetry should be poetic.
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