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FirielPeredhel
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Post mahtar vs ohtar
on: March 21, 2005 12:24
I would like to know the difference between the words mahtar and ohtar. Both seem to mean warrior. Are they interchangeable or is there a difference beteen the two words that I am unaware of?
Also, I am in the process of reading VT 47, and on pg. 8 they mention a story that Celebrimbor was a Teleri who went to Eregion with Celeborn. I don't remember this story. Does anyone know which book it is in? I have UT and all of the HoME books. I have no recollection of this being in any of them.
Thanks in advance.


[Edited on 21/3/2005 by FirielPeredhel]
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: mahtar vs ohtar
on: March 21, 2005 05:44
You should actually have posted in the Quenya forum, but since you're already here...

Ohtar is the Quenya word for 'warrior'. As for the other word, I think you mean mehtar. The constellation Orion was sometimes called Telumehtar, which is said to mean 'Warrior of the Sky' in Quenya, but I can't think of another occurrence of the word. I would go with ohtar.

I've not yet read VT47, but from all I've read, Celebrimbor was not Telerin. He was a Noldo. He was the grandson of Fëanor and the leader of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. He was called the Lord of Eregion and was instrumental in the forging of the Rings of Power.
Ailinel
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Post RE: mahtar vs ohtar
on: March 21, 2005 07:24
mahtar is derived from the root MAK, cf. VT45:32: "The original gloss of Q mahtar as 'swordsman(n)' was deleted in the act of writing and replaced with 'warrior'."

Regarding ohtar, cf. UT:365 (the page number might be different in your edition; it is note 17 to "Disaster of the Gladden Fields"): "Ohtar 'warrior, soldier' was the title of all who, though fully trained and experienced, had not yet been admitted to the rank of roquen, 'knight'." (Relating to the army of Gondor.)
FirielPeredhel
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Post RE: mahtar vs ohtar
on: March 22, 2005 01:39
Sorry. I guess I got into the wrong place. I have a difficult time getting around in this website. Some day I will figure it out.
Thank you for helping with the 2 words. You are so much more knowledgable than I am, and I have been reading Tolkien for a very long time! I am simply amazed that you can find stuff in the books so easily whenthere are so many to look into!
As for Celebrimbor not being Telerin, as I said, this little bit of info was found in VT. Maybe I will try to find out from them where they got it b/c like you, I never "knew" that Celebrimbor was Telerin. It would really not make sense that any Teleri would want anything to do with the Noldor after the Kinslaying. Accroding to VT 47, there were # Telerin who accompanied the Noldor into exile. The third one wasn't anemd, but Celebrimbor and Celeborn were.
Thansk so much for your help, and next tiem I will try to post in the Quenya palce!
Ailinel
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Post RE: mahtar vs ohtar
on: March 22, 2005 02:49
Regarding Celebrimbor, Christopher Tolkien wrote (HoME12:317): ""Like Gil-galad, Celebrimbor was a figure first appearing in The Lord of the Rings whose origin my father changed again and again. [..]" If you read the following explanations (Note 7), you might find what you are looking for.

[Edited on 22/3/2005 by Ailinel]

[Edited on 22/3/2005 by Ailinel]
FirielPeredhel
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Post RE: mahtar vs ohtar
on: March 22, 2005 03:42
Thank you. The reference to Celebrimbor being of Telerin origin is on page 318 of my copy of Vol. 12. It seems that this was more or less a passing idea of Tolkien's. It would be very intriguing, though, to have a Telerin elf follow the Noldor!
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