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Forum Home » Languages » Sindarin Discussion » Sting, Glamdring, Anduril inscriptions and wonderings...
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Faerfaen
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Post Sting, Glamdring, Anduril inscriptions and wonderings...
on: March 27, 2005 05:13
I've been wondering something on and off looking at a repro Sting of late. The text is in the Beleriand mode, but Tengwar. Glamdring, supposedly of the same time and place, is engraved in Cirth.

So.. what are your theories for what was done when and why?

I mean, given Bilbo actually naming Sting "Sting" and his adventures with spiders in Mirkwood, the speculation I've heard that Sting was engraved by the elves of Rivendell after his arrival makes sense to me.

But if so... why would they have used the Berleriand mode? Simply to look "old" or as a nod to its origin? In which case, why not use Cirth since that's what Glamdring bore, and moreover was what was used for Anduril (so we know the elvish smiths of Rivendell were familiar with working with Cirth).

Perhaps simply because it works better as an engraving/etching with the vowels inline with the rest of the text?
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Sting, Glamdring, Anduril inscriptions and wonderings...
on: March 27, 2005 05:49
why would they have used the Berleriand mode? Simply to look "old" or as a nod to its origin?


The mode of Beleriand was the mode used by the Elves of Rivendell. We know that the Noldor of Eregion used the mode of Beleriand as evidenced by the inscription on the Doors of Durin. The Noldorin loremasters who adapted the tengwar writing system for Sindarin found the use of tehtar to be 'inconvenient', so they devised a full writing mode. When Elrond founded Rivendell, the main part of its new inhabitants were Noldor from Eregion; it makes sense that they would bring their writing system with them. Tolkien's tengwar calligraphy for the lyrics ofA Elbereth found in The Road Goes Ever On were written in the mode of Beleriand. The subtitle (also in the mode of Beleriand) reads _Aerlinn in Edhil o Imladris_, which suggests that this was the mode used in Rivendell. The mode of Beleriand would not have been used to suggest age; the Cirth were used for writing Sindarin before the Noldorin Exiles ever brought the Tengwar to Middle-earth with them.
Faerfaen
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Post RE: Sting, Glamdring, Anduril inscriptions and wonderings...
on: March 28, 2005 04:23
The Beleriand mode was used in Rivendell? Certainly I'm no expert, but is that stated somewhere, or is it supposition based on the common heritage of Eregion?

I ask 'cause if it's the latter -- why then would Frodo not have been able to read the doors of Durin? As I recall, we are led to believe he is fluent in "modern" Sindarin from his education with Bilbo, and Bilbo's sole contact with the elves -- so far as I can tell -- is with those of Rivendell. Hence, if the Berleriand mode was the dominant form of writing at the end of the third age in Imladris, it follows Frodo would be familiar with it, and hence not have to ask Gandalf about it at Moria.
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Sting, Glamdring, Anduril inscriptions and wonderings...
on: March 30, 2005 09:21

I ask 'cause if it's the latter -- why then would Frodo not have been able to read the doors of Durin? As I recall, we are led to believe he is fluent in "modern" Sindarin from his education with Bilbo


We are not led to believe that Frodo was fluent in Sindarin. Tolkien tells us in App. E that Frodo had 'limited acquaintance' with Sindarin. He couldn't even understand a simple compound noun like dúnadan when he was in Imladris! Keep in mind that we know of at least three well-attested Sindarin tengwar modes (and a fourth is hinted at), and the only one that was irrefutably used by Elves was the mode of Beleriand. The Sindarin portion of the King's Letter was written in a Mannish mode, and Sam was able to make it out well enough to pronounce the S names of his family. Sam was also 'taught his letters' by Bilbo. Might that not be the mode that Bilbo taught to Frodo as well rather than the mode of Beleriand?

The Beleriand mode was used in Rivendell? Certainly I'm no expert, but is that stated somewhere, or is it supposition based on the common heritage of Eregion?

Besides the fact that the mode of Beleriand was apparently the writing system used by the Noldor of Rivendell before they moved there, let's not forget that Tolkien's only tengwar transcription of a text attributed to the Elves of Rivendell was in the mode of Beleriand. Also, in a letter to Anthony D. Howlett (which was auctioned at Sotheby's), Tolkien demonstrates how to write the name Imladrist "in the antique S. mode shown on the gates of Moria" (i.e. the mode of Beleriand) and "in the general use (applicable to both S. and Q) of the period of the tale". Notice that the mode of Beleriand was the first one he wrote in the letter. With one exception, every example we have of a 'general use mode' seems to be a work of Men, not Elves.

So I believe that the mode of Beleriand was the writing system most likely used in Rivendell (which, of course, is in Beleriand). Of course, your question was about weapon inscriptions used in the movies, not in the books. Tolkien never described tengwar inscriptions used on those swords. We are told that the name of Andúril was inscribed with jewels in runes on its scabbard, but that's all.

[Edited on 30/3/2005 by Uialdil_i_degilbor]
Faerfaen
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Post RE: Sting, Glamdring, Anduril inscriptions and wonderings...
on: March 30, 2005 03:31

We are not led to believe that Frodo was fluent in Sindarin. Tolkien tells us in App. E that Frodo had 'limited acquaintance' with Sindarin. He couldn't even understand a simple compound noun like dúnadan when he was in Imladris!


I had completely forgotten that scene! Thank you! Clearly, I need to rely less upon my memory.

But this is what I was thinking of --


"What does the writing say?" Asked Frodo, who was trying to deciipher the inscription on the arch. "I thought I knew the elf-letters, but I cannot read these."

"The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-Earth in the Elder Days," answered Gandalf. "But they do not say anything of importance to us..."


FOTR, p.398 in my 1966 paperback copy (just opposite the Door drawing)

Now I suppose that can be taken two ways -- either Frodo understood the characters of the text, but not the words themselves, or that the mode itself was different.

Frodo's line implies the former, Gandalf's can be read to imply the latter.

Now I'm thoroughly confused.

[Edited on 31/3/2005 by Faerfaen]
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