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Beren_Elaran
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Post Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 03, 2005 05:02
How do you pronounce the diphthongs ae, ai, and ei? I have listened to many sound clips as well as the dialogue from the movies and haven't come up with a consistent way of pronouncing any of these three. Currently I am saying them this way:

ai as in eye
ae as in way
ei as in ice

Someone please tell me if I'm pronouncing these wrong!

One other thing -- how do you pronounce a final w, like in _tew_? The plural form _thiw_ attested in FOTR first led me to assume that the final w is the Romanization of any finally occurring diphthong ending in u -- in this case iu. Of course that can't be the case, because there is no diphthong eu in Sindarin that would account for the spelling of _tew_. What appears to be happening here is the simple i-affection of an e in the final syllable.

Does this mean that w is a legal final consonant in Sindarin? And if it is, how do you pronounce it?
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 03, 2005 08:06
You got the ai right; it is indeed pronounced like the E. word 'eye'. The sound of ae is similar, but not quite the same. It is S. a('ah') and e('eh') pronounced together in a single syllable. We don't have that diphthong in standard English. In fact it's rare in most modern languages. ei has the sound of ei in E. 'eight', or the ay in E. 'say'.

When listening to Sindarin pronunciation in the movies, listen to Viggo Mortensen and Hugo Weaving; they generally have the best pronunciation. One thing that does bother me is that the whole cast pronounces short i with the same quality as long í. Apparently no one thought to consult what Tolkien wrote for The Road Goes Ever On. (BTW ... Ian McKellen is a great actor, but his pronunciation of Caradhras is awful!)

The final w in têw is a consonant, and many English speakers have difficulty pronouncing it. The best I can do to explain it is to pronounce the w sound as if it were going to be followed by a vowel, but don't vocalise the vowel sound. The hardest S. word for an English speaker to pronounce is probably lhaew: it has the voiceless lateral fricative lh (evil sound!), the diphthong ae, and a final consonantal w.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by Uialdil_i_degilbor]
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 09, 2005 06:29
Thanks, Uialdil. I think I can pronounce the final "w" okay now, but I'm having trouble with the ae sound. The best I can do is to pronounce them as separate syllables. I can't remember any place in the movies where Viggo or Hugo pronounced this sound. Do you know where I can get some sound clips to help with this?

Two more questions that came up recently -- how do you pronounce the diphthong oe? And how do you pronounce a word ending in "fn" (e.g. _cefn_) as one syllable?

Rim hennaid .
Eluned
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 19, 2005 10:56
Sound files giving the pronunciation of Welsh words can help. To prove that English speakers can master these sounds ()
you could go to http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/sounds/index.htm
and click on the following place names:

for final 'w', admittedly not after an 'e' but still... Caeriw and Troed-y-rhiw

for 'ai', Hirwaun or Waunarlwydd - in North Wales 'au' and 'ai' are differentiated, but not in South Wales, where you find these two places

for 'ae', any of the names starting with the element 'caer'

for 'ei', Meirionnydd

'lh' is 'll' in Welsh, and isn't that difficult, with practice. Place the tip of your tongue behind your two front top teeth and blow gently either side of it. Listen to all the names starting in 'Llan' on the above site, especially Llanelli, to see if you're doing it right.

[Edited on 19/4/2005 by Eluned]

[Edited on 19/4/2005 by Eluned]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 19, 2005 12:58
That is a very helpful site! Not only for what's listed above, but I can hear the 'difference' between the 'r' and the 'rh' sounds.
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Arannún
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 19, 2005 03:53
I was rustling through the Sindarin Resources provided here on CoE, and I found this link: http://dombach.florian.bei.t-online.de/phonology.htm

This is the site I'm using to help me learn to speak it better.

No i Melain na le. *May the Valar be with you.*
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 19, 2005 04:48
I was rustling through the Sindarin Resources provided here on CoE, and I found this link: http://dombach.florian.bei.t-online.de/phonology.htm

This is the site I'm using to help me learn to speak it better.


Florian's site is pretty good, but take some of what he says with a grain of salt. Some of the examples go against what Tolkien himself tells us.
Arannún
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 19, 2005 11:54
Florian's site is pretty good, but take some of what he says with a grain of salt. Some of the examples go against what Tolkien himself tells us.


Because of the fact I haven't extensively compared/constrasted the site with Tolkien's information... I can't really say that I've noticed any wrong pronunciations.

I try my best to go by what Tolkien advises.

[Edited on 20/4/2005 by Arannún]
Eluned
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 22, 2005 10:34
I'm glad Gwendeth found the site I posted useful. Gwendeth and anyone else interested might want to go to
http://www.gwybodiadur.co.uk/,
scroll down to the heading 'Welsh pronunciation' and click on it to get some more useful information and links.

The only sound in Sindarin I can think of that doesn't occur in Welsh is 'y' as in 'yrch'. We would pronounce it either as an 'uh' (it's called 'schwah', isn't it?) or as an 'i' (but not 'ee') sound - as in the Sindarin of Gondor. Well, would you believe it! However, we do pronounce 'ch' properly - just listen to someone saying Llannerch-y-medd.
Beren_Elaran
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 22, 2005 12:35
Thanks for the links, everyone! I thought this thread was dead and gone, but it appears that old threads do come back from the grave!

The "Sounds of Wales" site was very helpful, for diphthongs, w's, and voiceless consonants. They even have a place that starts with "cefn" -- pronounced by putting a schwa sound between the f and n. The final w's are not pronounced exactly as Uialdil described them -- final iw just sounds like Sindarin iu. Perhaps this is because w in Welsh is a semivowel, while in Sindarin it is a consonant.

I checked out Florian's site as well as gwybodiadur. Now I want to live in Wales! *practices voiceless ll's until face turns red*.
gwendeth
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 22, 2005 01:12
The only sound in Sindarin I can think of that doesn't occur in Welsh is 'y' as in 'yrch'.


Fortunately, for me - that's not been a problem letter to pronounce. lol 5 years of French helped a lot.

What's also 'hard' is that some people have a more 'natural' ability to pick up and imitate? repeat? sounds, aka 'accents' (e.g. 'impressionists' - there's a better word, but can't think of it now - but they're folks who can get down darn near any 'voice' they want!). lol, I can't tell you how many times I've cringed when some US actors 'attempt' to in movies - particularly trying to do ones from the UK - even with good voice coaches. *shudders*

Some people just can 'not'. Hence, (for example, I think), Kevin Costner in "Robinhood, Prince of Thieves". - Gads: Robin Hood with an American accent? Puhleeezzzzzze!! :banghead:

That may be one thing to keep in mind in regards to the LoTR actors, too, when we don't think they 'pronounce' Sindarin correctly... at least, perhaps?
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Fíriel
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 22, 2005 05:53
Thanks again for that link, Eluned. I've seen that site before (when I was still dallying with Welsh), and reading some of the articles there was a nice refresher, such as 'the dreaded LL sound' (maybe it's just me, but LH/LL doesn't actually seem that difficult?).

This is marginally OT, but:

Some people just can 'not'. Hence, (for example, I think), Kevin Costner in "Robinhood, Prince of Thieves". - Gads: Robin Hood with an American accent? Puhleeezzzzzze!! :banghead:


It reminds me of the other Robin Hood movie that I always liked much better -- Robin Hood: Men in Tights:

Prince John: And why would the people listen to you?
Robin Hood: Because, unlike some other Robin Hoods, I can speak with an English accent.


Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 22, 2005 06:10

That may be one thing to keep in mind in regards to the LoTR actors, too, when we don't think they 'pronounce' Sindarin correctly... at least, perhaps?


That's not the only problem. I've seen the phonetic transcription of Sindarin used in the movies: the Sindarin i was always written ee ... even when it's a short i. Now that's wrong. This is what Tolkien himself wrote in his notes on A Elbereth in The Road Goes Ever On (p. 71):

"Of the long vowels only í (as in English see) by chance occurs. The short vowels may be rendered as in E. sick, bed, hot, foot (for u), though o is intended to be rounder than in modern E."

Florian Dombach errs in the opposite direction: he doesn't mention the ee of long í.
Eluned
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Post RE: Diphthong Pronunciations and Final W's
on: April 25, 2005 10:21
Well, Beren, you could always try to find some way of coming over to Wales to study Welsh for a while.

The university at Lampeter (Llanbedr Pont Steffan) does intensive summer courses, see http://welsh.lamp.ac.uk/Department/English/prospectus/hols.php

The other universities in Wales do courses, too. My parents went on one at Aberystwyth years ago. Yes, I was brought up speaking English, but I graduated in Welsh and have worked as a translator for years, so you see, it can be done. Links to these universities can be found on the site given below - Bangor, Carmarthen and Aberystwyth are in Welsh-speaking areas, Cardiff has a large Welsh-speaking population (including me) with a lively social life (not including me).

You could look for a scholarship to help with costs. This site looks useful for this, as well as having links to colleges
http://spruce.flint.umich.edu/~ellisjs/links.html#scholarship
The British Council and National Welsh American Foundation links seem worth investigating.

Don't forget that this August the Tolkien Society is organising a big event to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the publication of 'The Lord of the Rings', see http://www.tolkiensociety.org/2005/about.html

Perhaps 2005 is the year to pawn everything and fly over the Atlantic.

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by Eluned]

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by Eluned]
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