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Gil_Aurwen
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Post Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 19, 2005 04:39
My friend and I had started studying elvish about a month ago and I had this great idea to try to translate a passage from the Haggadah for the upcoming passover holiday to wow my family and friends. (or annoy, we shall see!)
Now we have only a few days left, and not much of a translation!!! Help!!!
This is the full text that I would need translated, any I could get would be great.

"What makes this night different from all other night?

That on all other nights we eat leavened and unleavened bread, but on this night only unleavened bread.

That on all other nights we eat all vegetables, but on this night bitter herbs.

That on all other nights we wouldn't dip even once, but on this night twice.

That on all other nights we eat sitting or reclining, but on this night we all recline."

Ok, that's it.
Thanks so much!!!

~Gil Aurwen
sindarinelvish
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 20, 2005 05:56
I have a very weak start for you...I am not expert, nor even an amateur...perhaps an apprentice, or on the knightly scale, no more than a page...

I just started playing with this and am too tired to continue. (It's 11:47 AAARRGGGHHHHH!) If it wasn't so late I'd be embarrassed to post this; if you didn't sound so desperate, I wouldn't, but who are we Elves to question the actions of mortal men.....

I just started playing around finding vocabulary......
I did not change tense endings or pronoun/plurals for nouns. Nor did any mutations. Example: fuin is night not nights.

I use Si (here) to replace "that" as in (here in time =that in this time) You also could go with “in this way”


What makes this night different from all other night?
Man echad- sen fuin minai (distinct from) o pan fuin?

That on all other nights we eat leavened and unleavened bread, but on this night only unleavened bread.
Si erin o fuin mado basgorn ortha a basgorn talu, (but) erin sen fuin erbasgorn talu.

That on all other nights we eat all vegetables, but on this night bitter herbs.
Si erin o fuin mado pan saleb (but) erin sen fuin mado salab saer (I didn’t want to use athelas for herb)

That on all other nights we wouldn't dip even once, but on this night twice.
Si erin o fuin...... (forgive my ignorance but not being Jewish I don’t understand this part and can’t figure out what comparable ideas would be)

That on all other nights we eat sitting or reclining, but on this night we all recline."
Si erin o fuin mado .......... erin sen fuin.........

SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.
Gil_Aurwen
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 20, 2005 07:15
Thanks so much for your help! truthfully, i'll do my best with it and my family won't know the difference anyway.
Just to answer the question about dipping - so the questions are abt the weird things that go on at the Seder (the ritual passover meal) and there are many! These four questions were set down as representative of all said weirdnesses. They're symbolic in a bunch of ways too... yadda yadda. So one of the weird things that happens at a Seder is that there are two times that we're dipping something into something else. the first time, we dip a green vegetable (or a potato) into saltwater to symbolize the tears that our ancestors cried when they were slaves in egypt. and the second time we dip the bitter herbs into a sweet pasty mixture called "charoset" which has to do with the mortar that was used to build the pyramids and again, the bitterness of slavery.
Thanks again for your help. I also got some other info from someone else - i'll put them both together.
so whats up with elves and sitting? do they never sit or recline?
gwendeth
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 21, 2005 02:31
David Salo had 'constructed' "havo" for the movie (Havo dad, Legolas).

A subsequent VT (can't remember which one) had the verb haf- (I think - I can't find that thread here in E101 any more) - but it is 'to sit'. I also can't remember if it was Sindarin or actually Noldorin either. I'd conjugate it like the verb 'laf-'.

I'll try to run through this this morning in a little... busy day yesterday... I may not come up with the best, but some ideas, perhaps...
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 21, 2005 04:24
Just some thoughts... (usual S/N/NS 'disclaimer') and a bit of 'rewording'. A large problem - no word for 'other' - even in NS. A 'secondary' one - lol, no word for 'vegetable' either.

"What makes this night different from all other night?

> Am man theled fuin hen minai athra fuin bain?
Lit: To what purpose [why] night this [is] unique beyond nights all?
That on all other nights we eat leavened and unleavened bread, but on this night only unleavened bread.

> Fuin bain medim masgorn sui órui, dân fuin hen medim masgorn dalu na-erui.
Lit: Nights all we eat bread as [is] common, but night this we eat breat flat only.
That on all other nights we eat all vegetables, but on this night bitter herbs.

> Fuin bain medim 'elais vaer, dân fuin hen medim helaib haer.
Nights all we eat plants useful, but night this we eat herbs bitter.
That on all other nights we wouldn't dip even once, but on this night twice.

> Fuin bain ú-limmidatham lû vin, dân fuin hen limmidatham lui daid.
Lit: Nights all we will not moisten time one, but night this we will moisten times two.
That on all other nights we eat sitting or reclining, but on this night we all recline."

> Fuin bain medim ir havol egor caedhel, dân fuin hen, caedatham.
Nights all we eat when sitting or lying down, but night this we will lie down.

NOTES:
* basgorn is a 'special cases' word
* órui - NS 'common'
* I used "galas vaer" (pluralized) [plants useful] for 'vegetables'
* lol, I'm not Jewish either - but I used the verb 'limmida-' (moisten) for 'dip'
* haf- (sit) using the active participle
* caedha- NS 'lie down' - possible active participle form

[Edited on 21/4/2005 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Gil_Aurwen
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 21, 2005 12:15
I want to thank you guys for your help. The festivities begin tomorrow night at sundown, and after Mon night, the prohibition of doing work is put on hold until next Sat. So on Tuesday I will update you all on how it went!
Wish me luck! (I hope I do the pronunciations right, I got through the first lesson in the Sindarin workbook, so I should be ok. )
sindarinelvish
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 21, 2005 03:50
Thanks, Gil for your Seder explanation.

The real answer to your "what's up with elves" question is that there is a limited amount of Sindarin that is documented from cannon or can be constructed from root words so sometimes you have to play around with the translation in order to get the meaning but perhaps not the exact phrasing.

My tongue-in-cheek (smart ass) answer is that we elves are always on the move so there's no need for sitting or reclining verbs.

There is dartha- meaning to stay, and as Gwendeth says, haf- and caedha-

....by the way, Gwendeth is an absolute Sindarin scholar and I worship the scroll her quill runs across.
SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.
Gil_Aurwen
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Post RE: Emergency Passover translation help please, need it by thursday night!!
on: April 25, 2005 04:20
Ok, the update. Once again, I would like to thank you all. This is how it went... After my youngest brother, 13 yrs old, recited the Four Questions, the suggestion was made that the rest of the "kids" (ages 16-27!! ) say it together. So I stepped in and saved the rest of us. I announced that in the tradition of my increasingly nonsensical ways of reciting the Four Questions (past examples include: saying it completely backwards, in French, in Pig-Latin, even Ebonics!) I would now recite it in the ancient and beautiful language set down by J.R.R. Tolkien and known as Elvish. It went off beautifully. I used a combination of the suggestions that I got and it was fun! The reaction was mixed, some thought it was cool, others rolled their eyes, but I was glad I did it and the coolest thing is, it will be new again next year when I spend Seder with my in-laws!
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