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Naneth
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Post VT47
on: April 24, 2005 12:18
I've finally had time to sit down and type out a bunch of things included in the new Vinyar Tengwar issue.

Here is a list of interesting things I've noted about VT47, with respect to the article written by JRR Tolkien titled "Eldarin Hands, Fingers, & Numerals and Related Writings", and the first part of Pat Wynne's presentation and analysis. I would like to share them with you for your own learning and also for open discussion on them.


1.) We now know that "maetha-" doesn't only mean "to fight". VT47 also lists: maetha- (from MA3 .... confused with MAK) to handle, wield, manage, deal with.

2.) "Hand", even in a statement like "They raised their hands" was always written in the "singular". If the Elves wrote "They raised both hands", it was written in the dual form, but I'm not sure Sindarin would support that .... even though we do have an example to go by .... Galadhad (galadh + ad) for "two trees". VT says "the plural was impossible". If we take Tolkien's Letter as an example for duals, in which he explained Argonath as the "group of two stones" which would replace the use of duals, then we should probably use "cammath", but only when talking about "both right and left hands", not when talking about a bunch of right hands or a bunch of left hands !!

3.) We now have the stem KWÂ, meaning "whole, complete, all".... which would explain where "phain" came from in the King's Letter.

4.) The base KWAR means "press together, squeeze, wring".

5.) From base PAL, we have Sindarin "plad" which means "the flat of the hand, the hand held upwards or forwards, flat and tensed (with fingers and thumb closed or spread). This way of holding the hand was used to signal others. "Plada-" is a Sindarin verb meaning "to pass the sensitive palm over a surface: feel with the hand, stroke".

6.) "Leber, pl. lebir" is Sindarin for "finger(s)".

7.) "Min, min-" is explained as a NOUN meaning "a gap, space, barrier, or anything intervening between two other things (like or unlike one another), whereas "enedh" would be an adjective or noun meaning "middle" as "the position" of something.

8.) Imladris > The Canyon of the Cleft

9.) "_eg" is given as a diminutive suffix (example: netheg) later emended to "-ig" (example: nethig).

10.) We finally see the source of CHostetter's revelation to me that "er" (one) means "alone and different" [ ... therefore "unique" ....] as opposed to "min" meaning "first of a series".

11.) The interrogative stem MA is noted.

12.) "Cam" is given as the Sindarin word for "handful, holding hand".

13.) "Dond, donn" is given as the Sindarin word for "fist".

14.) "Sûl" refers to the "sound of wind", not wind itself.

15.) "Im" is glossed as a reflexive pronoun here, but it is stated that at the time of LOTR it was clearly a 1st person singular pronoun.

16.) "NETH" goes through many gloss changes and I believe finally winds up meaning "sister" .... Sindarin "nîth" (or should it be "nethel"?) and perhaps, notes Patrick Wynne, replaces Etymology base "THEL".

17.) Unfortunately we have another "untranslated" Sindarin phrase ..... "Im Elrond echanthel".
gwendeth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 24, 2005 05:22
Thanks Naneth! Not having any of the VT issues I am one of those who has to 'rely' *sigh* on the commentaries, etc. that get posted various places.

In the interest of discussion (and probably making myself look dumber than I think I am ):
1.) We now know that "maetha-" doesn't only mean "to fight". VT47 also lists: maetha- (from MA3 .... confused with MAK) to handle, wield, manage, deal with.

How would this compare with below:

matha- [v. to stroke, feel, handle OS *matt(h)a-, CE *mahta- (MAH) matho v. inf.
4.) The base KWAR means "press together, squeeze, wring".

As I'm still struggling with how words are/might be 'constructed' - could that yield (perhaps) - a NS verb 'par-'?
5.) From base PAL, we have Sindarin "plad" which means "the flat of the hand, the hand held upwards or forwards, flat and tensed (with fingers and thumb closed or spread). This way of holding the hand was used to signal others. "Plada-" is a Sindarin verb meaning "to pass the sensitive palm over a surface: feel with the hand, stroke".

VERY useful to know! I've missed that verb!!
6.) "Leber, pl. lebir" is Sindarin for "finger(s)".

Interesting that these are close to 'lebed', pl 'lebid'.

lebed* (lhebed) n.  finger Ety/368, X/LH OS *lepet- (LÉP-ET)
7.) "Min, min-" is explained as a NOUN meaning "a gap, space, barrier, or anything intervening between two other things (like or unlike one another), whereas "enedh" would be an adjective or noun meaning "middle" as "the position" of something.

To me, this would 'negate' the "Neo-Sindarin" construction, 'immen' for 'between us' - which has previously had a 'closer'-type intention, I think (i.e. keeping a secret 'between us'). - Or, am I off-base?
12.) "Cam" is given as the Sindarin word for "handful, holding hand".

13.) "Dond, donn" is given as the Sindarin word for "fist".

14.) "Sûl" refers to the "sound of wind", not wind itself.

New (or clarified) Sindarin words are ALWAYS welcome!!
15.) "Im" is glossed as a reflexive pronoun here, but it is stated that at the time of LOTR it was clearly a 1st person singular pronoun.

So then... do we have any idea of 'which' would be the 'recommended' usage?
16.) "NETH" goes through many gloss changes and I believe finally winds up meaning "sister" .... Sindarin "nîth" (or should it be "nethel"?) and perhaps, notes Patrick Wynne, replaces Etymology base "THEL".

Would this then negate using:

neth adj.  young Ety/377 Irreg. MS *neθr, OS *net(h)ra (NETH)

And/or - would this then 'replace' muinthel?

muinthel pl. muinthil n. f.  sister Ety/392 muin+thêl
17.) Unfortunately we have another "untranslated" Sindarin phrase ..... "Im Elrond echanthel".

I find it quite interesting that (though untranslated), the form is similar to "Im Narvi hain echant..." (Moria Gates) and "... im Tinúviel" the (also sadly untranslated Lúthien's song). I'm probably stating the 'obvious' to those who are better scholars than me - but it struck me.

Note: All citations are from: [Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary (Edition 1.6, Lexicon 0.993)]

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Aelfwine
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 25, 2005 03:52
10.) We finally see the source of CHostetter's revelation to me that "er" (one) means "alone and different" [ ... therefore "unique" ....] as opposed to "min" meaning "first of a series".


No, the sources of my statement were published long ago, right where I said they were: In the Etymologies and in "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor", VT 42 (July 2001), p. 10: "In Eldarin er was not used in counting in series: it meant 'one, single, alone'"; and p. 24: "1 'single' (non-serial) ER; 'one, first of a series' MIN".
gwendeth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 25, 2005 06:06
Ok - something rather cool!

On the GWAITH I-PHETHDAIN site, under the "What's New" heading, is a list of the Elvish names of the hand from VT 47!! They list both Sindarin and Quenya names (along with English and Polish).

Along with what Naneth posted above (just for the Sindarin):

Wrist: molif
Thumb: leber (pl. lebir)
Third finger (aka 'ring finger'): nethig

Comments:

1. I find it interesting that "leber/lebir" is listed for both 'finger(s)' and 'thumb'.

2. In regards to 'nethig' - what does that (perhaps) 'say' in regards the above comments about 'neth' (perhaps ending up as 'sister') and/or the '-ig' diminutive? Changes in JRRT's thinking perhaps?

Just trying to learn more!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
gwendeth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 25, 2005 07:15
Sorry for a double-post... but something else occurred to me.

If one 'excludes' the thumb as the 'first' finger (as it were), that would make the 'ring' finger the 'third' one. - Could that (perhaps) have something to do with 'why' the name is listed as 'nethig'? (Somehow being related to 'nêl' - 'three'; or 'nail/nelui' - 'third'; from VT 42?) I'm terrible at the 'roots'!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Bellenion
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 26, 2005 05:38

......

7.) "Min, min-" is explained as a NOUN meaning "a gap, space, barrier, or anything intervening between two other things (like or unlike one another), whereas "enedh" would be an adjective or noun meaning "middle" as "the position" of something.

As a NOUN? I am confused. As the Quenya form _imbe_ and Sindarin form _mîn, min-_ are introduced together, the Quenya form has been given examples as a preposition: _imbe met_, _imbe siryat_, and _imbi Menel Kemenya mene Ráno tie_. I think that's also the case for Sindarin _mîn, min-_.
Naneth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 26, 2005 06:24
Wow Gwendeth .... so many questions !!

How would this compare with below:
matha- [v. to stroke, feel, handle OS *matt(h)a-, CE *mahta- (MAH) matho v. inf.
>>>> Hmmm ... as far as I can tell Noldorin "matha-" comes from MA3 and "maetha" would probably just be a "Sindarin" form of it, although its gloss in VT47 seems to be a bit different, and "plada-" seems to have taken over as the "stroke, feel" verb.


As I'm still struggling with how words are/might be 'constructed' - could that yield (perhaps) - a NS verb 'par-'?
>>>> Sounds ok to me.

To me, this would 'negate' the "Neo-Sindarin" construction, 'immen' for 'between us' - which has previously had a 'closer'-type intention, I think (i.e. keeping a secret 'between us'). - Or, am I off-base?
>>>> "Im-" is said to have only survived in the words "imlad" and "imrad", but there is also the name "Taur-im-Duinath". Pat Wynne suggests, because of the date when the manuscript containing "Taur-im-Duinath" was written (195, that Tolkien might have meant to replace it (this essay in VT47 is dated around 196 or had forgotten about it.

So then... do we have any idea of 'which' would be the 'recommended' usage?
>>>> I guess it would depend on each person's own decision ..... whether they wanted to use a word with LOTR period meaning or a more updated one.

And/or - would this then 'replace' muinthel?
>>>> Pat Wynne suggests it might ... or they might also co-exist.

Would this then negate using: neth adj. young Ety/377 Irreg. MS *neθr, OS *net(h)ra (NETH)
>>>> It seems that way.

I find it interesting that "leber/lebir" is listed for both 'finger(s)' and 'thumb'.
>>>> Quite simply, the thumb was considered a finger.

In regards to 'nethig' - what does that (perhaps) 'say' in regards the above comments about 'neth' (perhaps ending up as 'sister') and/or the '-ig' diminutive? Changes in JRRT's thinking perhaps?
>>>> The one thing that is missing from the diagram at Gwaith i-Phethdain is the English naming of the fingers.
From the thumb out, the fingers were named:
daddy
mummy
"sticker up" or "big boy"
girl (daughter)
baby
"Nethig" would probably be "little sister". As far as HOW the Elves counted on their fingers, we are told:
When the Elves counted with both hands, they laid the thumbs touching, started with one thumb and counted outwards to the little finger and then came back to the other thumb and counted the same on that hand, etc.
Ened (middle) and (e)nel-ed (three .... the third finger), which is "big boy", are related.
gwendeth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 26, 2005 06:38
Thank you so much Naneth! Your explanations help a lot! :hug:
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Naneth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 26, 2005 07:24
I am confused. As the Quenya form _imbe_ and Sindarin form _mîn, min-_ are introduced together, the Quenya form has been given examples as a preposition: _imbe met_, _imbe siryat_, and _imbi Menel Kemenya mene Ráno tie_. I think that's also the case for Sindarin _mîn, min-_.

I know what you're saying Bellenion, and further in the article "Minhiriath" is glossed "Between the Rivers". But the quote we're referring to clearly refers to "mîn, min-" as a noun: "a gap, space, barrier, or anything intervening between two other things (like or unlike one another). So in other words, "Minhiriath" would mean "(the place) between two rivers" .... "imbe met" (the space) between you and me.
Bellenion
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 26, 2005 11:05

I know what you're saying Bellenion, and further in the article "Minhiriath" is glossed "Between the Rivers". But the quote we're referring to clearly refers to "mîn, min-" as a noun: "a gap, space, barrier, or anything intervening between two other things (like or unlike one another). So in other words, "Minhiriath" would mean "(the place) between two rivers" .... "imbe met" (the space) between you and me.

That was also what I'd thought. However, I tend to consider "...referring to..." as a distinguishing and clarification the tiny different concepts between _mîn, min-_ and _enedh_, but not the meaning itself.

Anyway, you're a native English speaker, and what you interpret would be more accurate than I do

Suil!
Naneth
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Post RE: VT47
on: April 27, 2005 01:36
You know, the more times I read that line, the more I can see your point Bellenion. Maybe it is just a comparison of two prepositions and to what they are referring.
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