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SwissBoy
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Post Poem in Sindarin
on: May 06, 2005 08:26
Hello,
I just wondered if you could please check my Grammor on this poem which I recently wrote and translated. I have two constructed words (compounds) in the poem, I will include them at the end of the poem...and the way in which I constructed them.

English

Dôr En-Edhelath (Land of the Elves)

Starlit skies of Elvish night
Leaves green beneath silver cloud
Flowing streams of crystal lakes
Foothills growing to Mountains High
This our homeland Dôr En-Edhelath

Sindarin

Dôr En-Edhelath (Land of the Elves)

Menil 'ilgalant dû Edhil
Laiss galen di faun geleb
Celith hirithol ael ivor
Tynnellai galol in ýr chall
Sen ardvar vín Dôr En-Edhelath

Word for word translation

Dôr En-Edhelath (Land of the Elves)

Skies starlit (of) night elvish
Leaves green beneath cloud silver
Streams flowing (of) lakes(s) crystal
Foothills growing to mountains high
This homeland our Dôr En-Edhelath

Reconstructed Compound Words

Foothill - taken from Tund (Hill) and Gal-Grow---Galol (Growing)
1. Tundgalol
2. Tundalol
3. Tunnalol
4. Tunnalla - Rising Hills (or in otherwords Foothills...hills rising to mountains

Homeland - Taken from Bâr (Home) and Ardh (Region)
1. Ardhbâr
2. Ardhvâr
3. Ardvâr
4. Ardvar - Home Region (Homeland)

Well let me know what you think, and what I may have done wrong. Thanks!
Fíriel
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Post RE: Poem in Sindarin
on: May 06, 2005 03:50
Hi SwissBoy,

just some of my thoughts:

Dôr En-Edhelath (Land of the Elves)


You would need to use in here because 'elves' is plural (even if it uses the collective suffix).

Menil 'ilgalant dû Edhil


gilgalant? Is this based on gilgalad (gîl and cala-? Perhaps gilgelennin, the plural passive participle form, would be better, or even another verb, than-, 'to kindle, to light' -- gilthennin?

Also, I'm curious as to why you choose to use edhil in place of a perfectly workable adjective for 'elvish' -- edhellen.

Laiss galen di faun geleb


Remember that adjectives must agree with the noun they're describing in plurality, so laiss gelin. An adjective for 'silver' such as celebren or celevon would be preferable here.

Celith hirithol ael ivor


The proper way to form the present participle 'flowing' is to take the verb siria- and add -ol, which displaces the final A: siriol. Also, where's celith from? I can't find any of its hypothetical singular forms that would mean 'stream'.

The plural for 'lakes' is listed as aelin in DF, and perhaps using the adjective ivren/ivrin, 'of crystal, crystalline', would be better than the noun.

Tynnellai galol in ýr chall


Couldn't one just say 'hills' here, as its difference from the mountains is already clear? (IMHO)... Anyway, going along with this type of construction, for 'growing-hill', I think tund (which becomes tun(n) in compounds) and galol could be combined to produce tungalol. I'm not clear on how you constructed tunalla, and where ýr comes from... Hall has to agree with the noun, so hell (presumably).

Sen ardvar vín Dôr En-Edhelath


At first, I was going to say that sen should come after the noun, but reading your English translation leads me think you want to have it separately, as emphasis? As for your constructions... remember that bar is a special case word, and so when lenited, will undergo B > M instead of B > V. Also, those consonant clusters look awkward to me. Not that I can think of any better alternatives at the moment.
Ailinel
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Post RE: Poem in Sindarin
on: May 06, 2005 09:24
Just one more suggestion:

Instead of _Edhelath_ I would prefer one of the forms used by Tolkien, cf.:

"the class-plural was Eldrim, later Elrim, when this was not replaced by the more commonly used Eledhrim" (WJ:377)

"the class-plural Eledhrim was the usual word for 'all the elvish race', whenever such an expression was needed." (W:37
SwissBoy
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Post RE: Poem in Sindarin
on: May 07, 2005 10:30
Hello,
Well I have thustly made a few changes to the poem per suggestion. I am quite pleased, very few grammor problems reported...which is what I basically focused on. I have the poem again listed with the corrections added:

Dôr-In-Edhelath (Land of the Elves)

Menil 'ilgelennin dû Edhellen
Laiss galin di faun celebren
Celith siriol aelin ivren
Tunn vain in ered hell
Sen ardmar vín Dôr En-Edhelath

Explinations or comments.

1. Thanks Firiel for all the help!

2. I've corrected the title now so it includes "in", I apperantally passed over this part in Chapter 3 of the workbook

3. Gilgelennin seems to work in line one, I wasn't sure how to change the original word so that's how I got the original. Also I must have been out of it for not considering to use Edhellen here.

4. Celith is the plural form of Celeth which means basically stream. The word comes from VT: 45:9 and is formed from the OS: Kelett(h)e and formed from the Root R: Kel.

5. I changed the beginning of line 4 to Hills beutiful "Tunn vain"
SwissBoy
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Post RE: Poem in Sindarin
on: May 07, 2005 10:44
This would be the new English version with it's direct translation.

Starlit skies of Elvish night
Leaves Green under Silver Cloud
Flowing Streams of Crystal Lakes
Rolling Hills below Mountains High
This our Homeland Dôr-In-Edhelath

Skies starlit (of) night elvish
Leaves green beneath cloud silver
Streams flowing (of) lake(s) crystal
Beautiful hills to mountains high
This homeland our Dôr-In-Edhelath


In edition I am wondering if "Tethir ú Theithnnen" would pass as author unknown (writer not known) and if "Teithannen ned i Andrann Galad" would pass as written in the age of light.

Basically I've tried to make Writer from written but am still unsure how to manage that one. so any further suggestions on this would be indeed most appreciated
Fíriel
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Post RE: Poem in Sindarin
on: May 08, 2005 03:19
Hi Swissboy,

I don't know if these are typos, but I'd just like to correct the following:


Dôr-In-Edhelath (Land of the Elves)

Menil 'ilgelennin dû Edhellen
Laiss galin di faun celebren

1. Should be laiss gelin -- the adjective has to agree with the noun in plurality.
2. Remember, celebren is lenited to gelebren because it's an adjective after a noun!

Celith siriol aelin ivren

3. Thanks for the note, SwissBoy -- I haven't read VT45 yet.
4. Siriol should probably be lenited to hiriol here.
5. ivren must agree in plurality > ivrin.

Tunn vain in ered hell

6. If you mean for 'hills' in Sindarin to be plural, the U in tunn changes to Y: tynd (better to use tynd instead of tunn here when not part of a compound).
7. SwissBoy, most of the time I just gave you the unlenited form of the adjective, so you were right in writing ered chell. Sorry for the confusion.

Sen ardmar vín Dôr En-Edhelath

8. IN, not EN for the genitive phrase.


Edit: fixed faulty BBcode.

[Edited on 9/5/2005 by Fíriel]
Ailinel
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Post RE: Poem in Sindarin
on: May 10, 2005 12:20
May I ask one question...


Tunn vain in ered hell

(lit. "Beautiful hills to mountains high")

Is in supposed to mean "to"?

IMO the line reads: "Beautiful hills of the mountains high" . (>_chell_)
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