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Erugolon
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Post Trying to translate some names
on: May 11, 2005 04:20
Hi everyone. What first got me into learning these languages was simply a curiousity for what peoples' names translated as. Currently, I'm trying to find them in Sindarin so I have a few questions

Firstly, do Elves have more than one name? (i.e. first name, surname etc..) as I have been trying to convert them all.

One of those surnames is, "Shepherd" and I'm having no luck finding a translation for that. In Quenya, I've found "mavar" but I can't seem to find the Sindarin equivalent. Performing a search on here it seems there isn't one as far as I can tell. So, is there a method of converting a word from Quenya to Sindarin?

Secondly, I'm wondering about gender suffixes and where and whether they should be used. Are they used for only those names which have an implied gender opposite to that of the person? Also, when forming names from compound words, adding these suffixes can result in long names. Is there a method for shortening these?

Ok, another name I'm trying to figure out is Nilda. This apparently originates from Brunhild which is a combination of two words meaning "armour, protection" and "battle".

I haven't been able to find a word for armour but I think protection is, "beriad". For "battle", there are several words and I was originally going to use "maeth" but it seems to imply a small scale skirmish so "auth" seems more appropriate.

Now, word order. They are both nouns so I'm not really sure to how to do this.

Maybe...
authveriad
or
beriadauth?

As this is a feminine name, it's screaming for some kind of suffix as it just sounds so inherently masculine (not trying to be sexist here lol).

So for example it could be, "Authveriadien" which is six syllables if I'm not mistaken. Not exactly the shortest name in the world

Any help to try to clear this up would be appreciated.

Thanks
Fíriel
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 11, 2005 09:52
Hi Erugolon,

this has always been a topic I've been interested in, but unfortunately work beckons, so I'll have to be brief for now.

Firstly, do Elves have more than one name? (i.e. first name, surname etc..) as I have been trying to convert them all.


Yes they can. If you refer to HOME: Morgoth's Ring, the essay 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar' goes into great detail on Noldorin naming customs especially, but if you can't, I'll refer you to this page (scroll down to 'Family Names' -- it's accurate, according to my quick scan).

So, is there a method of converting a word from Quenya to Sindarin?


Yes there are ways, although it's more proper to find the Common Eldarin root of the Quenya word if possible, and then work from that root to formulate a Sindarin word.

Secondly, I'm wondering about gender suffixes and where and whether they should be used. Are they used for only those names which have an implied gender opposite to that of the person? Also, when forming names from compound words, adding these suffixes can result in long names. Is there a method for shortening these?


When people request Elvish translations of their names, they always seem insistent on having it gender specific, which works for some names but not for others. 'Noble maiden', Arwen, is fine, but is '(fem.) green nightingale', e.g. Tuilingaleneth, really necessary? (I often object to making names gender-specific because of the tongue-twisters they become.) If you look at a lot of Tolkien's names, the gender isn't really specified unless it forms an important part of the meaning, like Arwen or Galadriel ('maiden crowned with a radiant garland', given to her by lovesick Celeborn ). Other names you might expect to have feminised or masculinised, like 'sharp fire', Aegnor, or 'light on the pools of Ivrin' (according to Tolkien), Faelivrin, do not have common gender suffixes.

Maybe...
authveriad
or
beriadauth?


IMHO, it's important to avoid awkward consonant clusters such as THV, and in my opinion, Beriadauth could work (although it's also possible AU would become a monophthong in compounds, hence Beriadoth).

If you don't mind using synonyms such as thand (thann), 'shield', I think they would generate pleasant and short-sounding names.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 12, 2005 01:39
Thanks very much for your help. I do have a few more questions though


Yes there are ways, although it's more proper to find the Common Eldarin root of the Quenya word if possible, and then work from that root to formulate a Sindarin word.


I've tried searching all over but I'm having no luck locating root words. Any helpful links for this?


If you don't mind using synonyms such as thand (thann), 'shield', I think they would generate pleasant and short-sounding names.


It seems strange that there's a word for shield but not one for armour. I had expected it to be an easy one to find. Is there really none available?

There's another surname I'm trying to translate which is Crawford which apparently means "bloody ford".

I've found "athran" for ford and "agar" for blood. From what I can tell, to change it to an adjective you add "-ui" so it becomes "agarui". Putting them together makes, "Athranagarui". Bit of a mouthful isn't it? I find it particularly hard to say "rui" in one syllable. Anyway, I was wanting to know how far off I was on this one?

Another one is "Ruiz" which means "son of Ruy". Ruy comes from Roderick which means "famous power". I can't find any word for famous but glorious is "aglareb". Power is "balan" so that would make, "balanaglareb". Now, as I understand it, the suffix for "son of" is "-ion" so the final name would be, "Balanaglarebion". Why is it that all the names I translate come out ridiculously long? lol

Thanks again for any help



Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 12, 2005 06:50
I've tried searching all over but I'm having no luck locating root words. Any helpful links for this?

By English:
[url]http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index/indexs01.htm
[/url]
By Elvish:
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index2/ind2t.htm


Here are a few suggestions for your names ....

Bloody Ford: Iaros is attested in The Lost Road as a name for a river with reddish water ..... "iar" meaning "blood". An alternative form to "iar" was penned in later as "iûr", so perhaps this name should be "Iúros". Another name could be Carathrad (meaning Red Ford).
Note: I don't think "Agarwaen" literally means "Blood-stained", but rather "Red-stained" from KARÁN with an intensifier in front of it. Discussion for another thread perhaps ??

Son of Ruy: Son of "Famous Power" > Beldorion [from bell (strong) + taur (mighty) + ion (son of)].

For Nilda, if you use Fíriel's suggestion, you could use "Shield-maiden" which implies all the things you wrote about (protector in battle with shield) ..... Thanwen [from thand (shield) + gwend (maiden)

[Edited on 13/5/2005 by Naneth]
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 13, 2005 06:03
Thanks very much for those links but no luck on Shepherd I even tried looking for sheep and herd seperately but no go. The word Mavar which I've seen quite a few times on the net wasn't in there either so I'm a bit stuck.

taw = woollen
lavan = 4-legged animal

So, maybe lavandaw for sheep. Herder could perhaps be berion (protector). It just results in another ridiculously long name though - Berionlavandaw.


Bloody Ford: Iaros is attested in The Lost Road as a name for a river with reddish water ..... "iar" meaning "blood". An alternative form to "iar" was penned in later as "iûr", so perhaps this name should be "Iúros". Another name could be Carathrad (meaning Red Ford).


I'm liking Carathrad here, both because of the sound and because it's the closest to the meaning without becoming a tongue twister


Son of Ruy: Son of "Famous Power" > Beldorion [from bell (strong) + taur (mighty) + ion (son of)].


I had tried a different translation last night and came out with Balglorion from bal (power) + claur (glory) + -ion but I didn't think "lgl" flowed very well.

How about Baldorion? (power + mighty + son of)

Another one could be to use shining (sílol) instead of famous, so maybe Sílolvalion?


For Nilda, if you use Fíriel's suggestion, you could use "Shield-maiden" which implies all the things you wrote about (protector in battle with shield) ..... Thanwen [from thand (shield) + gwend (maiden)


I like Thanwen though I did come up with another one last night....Rencothiel (from ranc (arm) plural + auth (battle) + feminine suffix) as I had looked up the etymology of armour and it comes from the word, "arma" which just means arms.

Oh and I was under the impression that adjectives follow nouns. Is this rule not used in compound words?

Thanks again for your help
Fallendil
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 13, 2005 09:53
Oh and I was under the impression that adjectives follow nouns. Is this rule not used in compound words?

I don't think that they have to. I notable example of an adjective preceding a noun would be_Gondor_. Also_Arwen_Arnor_Morgoth_Legolas_Thingol_Menegroth_.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 13, 2005 02:07

I don't think that they have to. I notable example of an adjective preceding a noun would be_Gondor_. Also_Arwen_Arnor_Morgoth_Legolas_Thingol_Menegroth_.


Thanks. So I take it word order in compound words is just whatever sounds good?

Ok, I had a bit of a think about Shepherd and came up with an alternative...Tirnúndaw. This is from Tirn (watcher) + ûn (creature) + taw (woollen). It was mentioned before that "au" is often changed to "o" in compound words. Does this apply with "aw"? At the end of words they are pronounced the same if I remember correctly. So, possibly Tirnúndo?

Thanks


Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 14, 2005 04:49
We have the Noldorin name "Araw", so I would think that the "w" would remain here.

Tirn ún daw

You could probably model this after "heledir" (fish-watcher) and combine this as "Taundir" also.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 15, 2005 05:36

You could probably model this after "heledir" (fish-watcher) and combine this as "Taundir" also.


I'm a little confused on how this is constructed. I can understand that Taw + ûn = Taun and the T on tirn is mutated to D. What I don't understand though, is why the N is dropped from Tirn?

Thanks again for your help. It is appreciated.
Fíriel
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 15, 2005 04:11
It seems strange that there's a word for shield but not one for armour. I had expected it to be an easy one to find. Is there really none available?


None, I think.

Putting them together makes, "Athranagarui". Bit of a mouthful isn't it? I find it particularly hard to say "rui" in one syllable. Anyway, I was wanting to know how far off I was on this one?


Well, it's grammatically correct, just as you said, a bit of a mouthful. I don't think though that every word that should be an adjective needs to take on such a suffix though (in the formation of compound names, anyway).

Now, as I understand it, the suffix for "son of" is "-ion" so
the final name would be, "Balanaglarebion". Why is it that all the names I translate come out ridiculously long? lol


Heehee.

How about Baldorion? (power + mighty + son of)

Another one could be to use shining (sílol) instead of famous, so maybe Sílolvalion?


It's plausible, especially when you consider names like balrog (although some would argue the bal element refers to supernatural, not physical strength). Sílolvalion I don't like so much -- too many Ls. I do like Naneth's suggestion a lot.

I like Thanwen though I did come up with another one last night....Rencothiel (from ranc (arm) plural + auth (battle) + feminine suffix) as I had looked up the etymology of armour and it comes from the word, "arma" which just means arms.


I like Thanwen, but your construction's good too, although I believe NC > NG in compounds, hence Rengothiel.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 17, 2005 02:02

Well, it's grammatically correct, just as you said, a bit of a mouthful. I don't think though that every word that should be an adjective needs to take on such a suffix though (in the formation of compound names, anyway).


Really? So instead of "bloody ford", you could say, "blood ford" (e.g. Agarathrad)?


I like Thanwen, but your construction's good too, although I believe NC > NG in compounds, hence Rengothiel.


Does anyone have a link showing all these rules for compound words where the letters mutate? Also, what happens when you stick a lot of vowels together? Like Agarui + athrad for example.

Thanks again
gwendeth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 17, 2005 03:07
Here's a link to the Mutation Chart here on COE that Naneth created.

http://www.councilofelrond.com/languages/123MC.htm

Well, if you combined them you'd get "araduiathrad" - in this case... not too bad, really.

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Fíriel
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 17, 2005 08:26

Really? So instead of "bloody ford", you could say, "blood ford" (e.g. Agarathrad)?


Well yes, you could. I don't think it's too common, but it does happen. Examples of words/names constructed in this way are Hithaeglir (supposed to be 'misty mountains', actually mist + mountain peaks) and angwedh (iron + bond = chain). Lena's published an excellent list analysing Sindarin compounds, which might aid you in constructing names.
Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 18, 2005 01:30
I'm a little confused on how this is constructed. I can understand that Taw + ûn = Taun and the T on tirn is mutated to D. What I don't understand though, is why the N is dropped from Tirn?

At the end of compounds, most times the last consonant in a cluster of two is dropped. A quick example is Arwen.
Ar + gwend > Argwend > Arwend > Arwen
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 18, 2005 01:06
Here's a link to the Mutation Chart here on COE that Naneth created.


Thankyou for the link but I've already been working my way through the lessons so I've had to use it myself quite a few times


Well, if you combined them you'd get "araduiathrad" - in this case... not too bad, really.


I'm baffled here. Why does agarui change to aradui?

Well yes, you could. I don't think it's too common, but it does happen. Examples of words/names constructed in this way are Hithaeglir (supposed to be 'misty mountains', actually mist + mountain peaks) and angwedh (iron + bond = chain). Lena's published an excellent list analysing Sindarin compounds, which might aid you in constructing names.


Thanks for your help though I was hoping for something that gave definitive rules for forming compounds. Yeah, I know, there's no such thing as definitive when it comes to Sindarin


At the end of compounds, most times the last consonant in a cluster of two is dropped. A quick example is Arwen.
Ar + gwend > Argwend > Arwend > Arwen


So, for example, Carathrad should be Carathad? Wouldn't that mean Rengothiel would be Renothiel? Or does this only apply to consonant clusters at the end of words?

Thankyou all
gwendeth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 18, 2005 02:15
I'm baffled here. Why does agarui change to aradui?

Umm - lol, when one gets 'fingeritis' and makes 'typos'.
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Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 19, 2005 05:54

Umm - lol, when one gets 'fingeritis' and makes 'typos'.


lol That would explain it then
Forodwen
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 19, 2005 08:10
For what it's worth...I also chose an Elvish name that translates the meaning of my real-life one: Ingeborg (Ing's protection) became Inguveriad, considering that some Tolkienists connect the "Ingwë" character in his books with the Ing/Yngvi of Norse lore. And Nordén (north) became Forodwen (northern-lady); I ended up inverting the Elvish version because the second half sounded better as a first name. :blush:
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 19, 2005 01:53
For what it's worth...I also chose an Elvish name that translates the meaning of my real-life one: Ingeborg (Ing's protection) became Inguveriad, considering that some Tolkienists connect the "Ingwë" character in his books with the Ing/Yngvi of Norse lore. And Nordén (north) became Forodwen (northern-lady); I ended up inverting the Elvish version because the second half sounded better as a first name. :blush:


I was looking up your name (on www.behindthename.com) and apparently Ing could mean "he who is foremost". Weirdly enough, "inga" in Quenya means top. Anyway, in Sindarin you could maybe have Mainben which is main (first, chief) + pen (one, someone). That would make Mainbenveriad. Yes, that's right...another long name I'll have to take on a title, Erugolon, i geredir enith and (the creator of long names) I probably got that wrong though lol
Forodwen
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 19, 2005 02:25
For what it's worth...I also chose an Elvish name that translates the meaning of my real-life one: Ingeborg (Ing's protection) became Inguveriad, considering that some Tolkienists connect the "Ingwë" character in his books with the Ing/Yngvi of Norse lore. And Nordén (north) became Forodwen (northern-lady); I ended up inverting the Elvish version because the second half sounded better as a first name. :blush:


I was looking up your name (on www.behindthename.com) and apparently Ing could mean "he who is foremost". Weirdly enough, "inga" in Quenya means top. Anyway, in Sindarin you could maybe have Mainben which is main (first, chief) + pen (one, someone). That would make Mainbenveriad. Yes, that's right...another long name I'll have to take on a title, Erugolon, i geredir enith and (the creator of long names) I probably got that wrong though lol


Although I may not have the Oxford doctorate to match Tolkien's, I do have enough background in historical linguistics and in Old Norse to say that the BTN information may not be accurate. the real meaning of the Germanic Ing-name has been disputed so widely that a phonetic approximation seems like a better solution than the "foremost" one.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 19, 2005 03:25

Although I may not have the Oxford doctorate to match Tolkien's, I do have enough background in historical linguistics and in Old Norse to say that the BTN information may not be accurate. the real meaning of the Germanic Ing-name has been disputed so widely that a phonetic approximation seems like a better solution than the "foremost" one.


Ah well, it did say "possibly" or something along those lines. I thought I'd translate it anyway just because I can Your name sounds better though either way
Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 21, 2005 12:11
So, for example, Carathrad should be Carathad? Wouldn't that mean Rengothiel would be Renothiel? Or does this only apply to consonant clusters at the end of words?

I was referring to ends of words, although "illegal consonant clusters" in the middle of words need to be dealt with also. "Thr" is not an illegal medial cluster though. Referring to your constructed name "Mainben" (from stem MIN).... it would probably need to be something like "Mindir" or "Minon", as "ai" isn't usually seen in non-final syllables and "pen" is usually used with generic associations such as "rochben, orodben" horseman, mountaineer .... instead of individual names.

Forodwen
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 21, 2005 12:59
I was referring to ends of words, although "illegal consonant clusters" in the middle of words need to be dealt with also. "Thr" is not an illegal medial cluster though. Referring to your constructed name "Mainben" (from stem MIN).... it would probably need to be something like "Mindir" or "Minon", as "ai" isn't usually seen in non-final syllables and "pen" is usually used with generic associations such as "rochben, orodben" horseman, mountaineer .... instead of individual names.



You have a point there; assuming I did go with the (inaccurate) "foremost" translation of the Ing-element in my name, would the -nv- created by compounding (*Minonveriad) be an illegal combination?
Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 21, 2005 01:38
Yep, that's an illegal one !! Nv would change to m.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 21, 2005 02:16
Thankyou Naneth for your help. What I want to know is...how do u know all this? lol There seem to be so many rules and exceptions. Is there a list somewhere of illegal clusters and what they are converted to and all these other rules like ai not occuring in non-final syllables? That would be really useful.

Thanks again
Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 21, 2005 03:26
I was going to wait until I had time to sit down and write out a huge lesson on compounds, but I've realized that, with work and other nagging "boulders in my path", I need to start with a small lesson and just add to it as I have time. Hopefully within the week I will have at least a "starter" compound lesson up.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 22, 2005 06:44
I was going to wait until I had time to sit down and write out a huge lesson on compounds, but I've realized that, with work and other nagging "boulders in my path", I need to start with a small lesson and just add to it as I have time. Hopefully within the week I will have at least a "starter" compound lesson up.


Oh sorry...I didn't realise you were already working on it. Sorry for being impatient. I appreciate your help
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 22, 2005 06:05
For an easy hint about acceptable nasal clusters, think in terms of the témar. Téma 1 is the dental series (t, d, th, dh), and therefore the only nasal consonant that can precede them is n. Téma II is the labial series (p, b, f, v), so the nasal that precedes them is m. Téma III, or téma IV, depending on which mode you're using, is the velar series (c, g, ch), and the nasal sound that precedes velars is ñ, which is represented by n in Latin transcription. In other words, the consonants of tyellë 5 combine with the consonants in their respective témar to make legal clusters.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 23, 2005 05:39
For an easy hint about acceptable nasal clusters, think in terms of the témar. Téma 1 is the dental series (t, d, th, dh), and therefore the only nasal consonant that can precede them is n. Téma II is the labial series (p, b, f, v), so the nasal that precedes them is m. Téma III, or téma IV, depending on which mode you're using, is the velar series (c, g, ch), and the nasal sound that precedes velars is ñ, which is represented by n in Latin transcription. In other words, the consonants of tyellë 5 combine with the consonants in their respective témar to make legal clusters.


Ok, that makes sense but what do you do when you have an illegal consonant cluster? For example, if you put bain (beautiful) and pen (someone) together, you'd have bainben but the only nasal that should procede b is m. So what does it become? Baimben? Or maybe you get rid of a letter. So Baiben? Or what?

Thanks for your help
Uialdil_i_degilbor
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 23, 2005 04:43
For example, if you put bain (beautiful) and pen (someone) together, you'd have bainben but the only nasal that should procede b is m. So what does it become? Baimben?


Probably. Cf. celebrin + paur = Celebrimbor, brithon + bâr = Brithombar, annûn + minas = Annúminas. However, I can't imagine why one would combine bain with pen since pen seems to be an agentive suffix in a compound, cf. rochben = horse-person = rider, orodben = mountain-person = alpinist, mountaineer. So baimben = beautiful-person = cosmetologist?
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 24, 2005 09:52
beautiful-person[/i] = cosmetologist?


heh Maybe. I hadn't really realised what it meant. I thought it was like "someone". Just an example though anyway
Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 27, 2005 07:55
baimben

I can't emphasize enough that "ai" in non-final syllables is not a usual Sindarin construction. "Banwen" (beautiful maiden) is attested in LR under BAN.

pen seems to be an agentive suffix in a compound

Well, we have "Morben" (dark one) and "Calben" (any elf other than an Avari) so I think it's more "descriptive" than "agentive".
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 28, 2005 05:07

I can't emphasize enough that "ai" in non-final syllables is not a usual Sindarin construction. "Banwen" (beautiful maiden) is attested in LR under BAN.

Oh sorry - so many rules to remember


Well, we have "Morben" (dark one) and "Calben" (any elf other than an Avari) so I think it's more "descriptive" than "agentive".


So bamben could mean "beautiful one"?
Naneth
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 28, 2005 07:16
It could but it doesn't really sound as pretty as Banwen.
Erugolon
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Post RE: Trying to translate some names
on: May 29, 2005 05:29
It could but it doesn't really sound as pretty as Banwen.


Very true
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