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Morna_Child_of_Eru

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Quenya: Imperative
on: July 28, 2005 07:08

Hello everyone. Here is my first translation. Please (gently) tell me what I did wrong...as I am under the impression I messed this up quite a bit.

I know the first phrase isn't really polite, but someone in Council Chat said it in Sindarin when we were talking about what Elvish phrases we know. It made me laugh, so I wanted to see if I could get it into Quenya. It's supposed to say “Be gone. Go jump in Mount Doom!” (using the word for jump in Malinorë's lessons). I wasn't sure wether to use the preposition “in” or the locative case.

Heca! Á capë mí i úruva oron or
Heca! Á capë i úruva oronessë

The second translation is something I made up, but loosely based on the FotR trailer. It's supposed to say “Sauman said the Nazgul will find the Ring and kill the Ringbearer.”

Equë Sauruman i úlari hiruva i corma ar macuva i cormacolindo.

[Edited on 29/7/2005 by Morna_Child_of_Eru]

[Edited on 22/1/2006 by Malinornë]

Malinornë

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 28, 2005 09:08

Morna, these are great first translations!

For 'in' (or rather 'into') here, you can use either a preposition (minna), or the allative case. Using the locative would make the sentence sound like it was directed to a person who was already inside of the mountain, and was asked to jump up and down there. Oron has a stem form (oront-), so you need to start from that when you add a case ending to the word.

In the second translation, you're saying that the Úlairi will do something, and because this is plural, the verbs need to have the plural marker -r (e.g. hiruvar)

Morna_Child_of_Eru

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 29, 2005 05:56

Thanks much for the feedback

Ok now I've got another question, but first, my corrections:

Heca! Á capë i úruva orontenna

Equë Sauruman i úlari hiruvar i corma ar macuvar i cormacolindo.

How is my first phrase to be stressed? I've been working on the assumption that since doubled consonants and groups of consonants expressed by single tengwa count as consonant clusters. In that case, the stress would be like this:

HEca Á CApe I ÚRuva oronTENna.

Is this correct?

[Edited on 29/7/2005 by Morna_Child_of_Eru]

Lambengolmo

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 29, 2005 06:35

Your stress is perfect!

However, in natural languages, it is fairly uncommon to stress short function words (articles, prepositions, particles, etc) such as i. I think that i would tend to lose any stress that it may have quite quickly.

Of course, that's only my opinion.

dirk_math

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 29, 2005 09:17

Concerning stress the á of the imperative is to be considered as part of the verb. So the stress of á capë is on the á particle and not on the a of capë: Ácapë.

This is the reason that the particle becomes a when the verb already contains a long syllable:
a móta 'work'; stress: amÓta
a lasta 'listen'; stress: alAsta
a caita 'lie'; stress: acAIta

[Edited on 2/8/2005 by dirk_math]

YassÃ« engÃ« lÃ³mÃ«, anarties calali.

Morna_Child_of_Eru

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 29, 2005 02:20

Thanks so much dirk_math. I've found this is one of the best methods to learn, but I've also decided that, as much as I love translation, it's time to stop jumping around and just focus on what I have down solid from the lessons I've already done. Trying to learn everything at once is a bit rough on the 'ol graymatter.

Thanks again. I'm sure I'll have some more stuff for you to correct. Namarië

thorsten

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 30, 2005 03:39

> Concerning stress the á of the imperative is to be considered as part of the verb.

What is that idea based on? How do you reconcile it with the observation that the imperative particle is a) never written as a part of the verb in Quenya in spite of the fact that Quenya frequently compounds phrases and b) the imperative particle can take its own set of pronomial endings, cf. _Alye anta men_ 'give us' (VT43:9) or _ Ámen anta_ 'give us' (T. changed the rules for subject/object marking inbetween) (VT43:12).

> This is the reason that the particle becomes a when the verb already contains a long vowel:
> (...)
> a lasta 'listen'; stress: alAsta

The a in _lasta_ is not a long vowel, it is a short vowel as the absence of the acute makes quite clear

> a caita 'lie'; stress: acAIta

This is not a long vowel either, it is a diphthong.

I suspect this is based on Helge's comments that _a_ may be preferred when a long syllable follows - but even that is at odds with Helge's recommendation:

It has been suggested that á is shortened to a whenever it occurs in front of a long syllable (like lai-, because of the diphthong ai), but we cannot be sure. Perhaps á vs. a is just an example of random variation: Presumably being unaccented, the particle could well tend to become shortened if speakers don't enunciate with care (the ecstatic crowds at Cormallen, hailing the hobbits who had saved the world, hardly did!) I would normally prefer the long form á, avoiding confusion with a as a particle of address, like English "o" (as in Treebeard's greeting to Celeborn and Galadriel: a vanimar = "o beautiful ones", Letters:30. (Quenya course by HKF, Lesson 16)

So to state this theory as if it were fact is kind of... bold. Having said that, it's not implausible, it's just not certain.

dirk_math

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 30, 2005 07:48

I know that the stress pattern is different when a pronoun is added to á, as in that case it always remains á and never becomes shortened.
To avoid confusion with beginning Quenya-learners I avoid to elaborate on such things except when explicitely asked for.

When considering stress the a of lasta is a stress-attracting vowel, so that is why I called it long. I am sure no one thought that I meant that the a should be pronounced long, it is only someone like you who supposes this.

YassÃ« engÃ« lÃ³mÃ«, anarties calali.

thorsten

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: July 30, 2005 12:27

I don't think I am the only one who gets the impression that you mean a long vowel when you say long vowel

> To avoid confusion with beginning Quenya-learners I avoid to elaborate on such things except when explicitely asked for.

Okay, then I'd like to explicitly ask you to please tell me why you think that the imperative _a/á_ is considered to be part of a verb. By PM if you prefer

Just to give an example:

> I know that the stress pattern is different when a pronoun is added to á, as in that case it always remains á and never becomes shortened.

But of course it gets shortened (or did you mean that by 'always' and 'never' by any chance?) - consider _Alye anta men_ - it does appear shortened, because it is followed by a two consonant _ly_ cluster and can't possibly be long.

Why don't you simply add some qualifiers like 'I believe' and 'possibly' to your explanations - I don't at all object against telling beginners a simplified story - but they ought to be aware that you're simplifying, and that is not obvious from what you say, and so you see me quoting Tolkien.

thorsten

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RE: Quenya: Imperative
on: August 02, 2005 06:18

So, after a bit of thinking:

It seems to me the question if the imperative becomes part of the verb is pretty disconnected from the question of length. Assume for a moment the imperative would really become part of the verb and we would get:

_á lasta > *álasta_

Would Quenya phonology require to shorten the imperative particle as it occurs before a stress carrying syllable? Not necessarily. We have e.g. _Ósanwe_ (VT39:23) which has just the same vowel-consonant structure as _*álasta_, i.e. VCVCCV and it doesn't get shortened. _ómaryo_ (Namárië) also shows that there is no such rule forcing a long vowel to shorten before the stress carrying syllable.

Likewise, phonology has no rule forcing a long vowel to shorten before a diphthong - cf. _ómainen_ 'with voices' (WJ:391) which has almost the same structure as _*alaita_.

WJ:367 lists a prefix _ó-_, usually reduced to _o-_ when unstressed, but this applies to the prefix only and is therefore not a hard rule of phonology as shown above.

So even if we assume the imperative to become part of the verb, there is still no rule that requires shortening in Quenya phonology.

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