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pv
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Post F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 18, 2005 07:38
At the risk of repeating myself

Which brother do you like best? And why?
And what's your take on their relationship?
Feanor
29% (9)
Fingolfin
55% (1)
Finarfin
13% (4)
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Dolwen
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 19, 2005 12:39
I chose Fingolfin because he tried to do a lot of good. He tried to show Feanor respect and loyalty despite Feanor's extreme jealousy. He was wise, loyal and brave. He tried to unite all of the elves and ended up dying battling Morgoth alone.
Iceman331
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 20, 2005 11:12
Its really a difficult choice to make because they are so different. Feanor was the greatest of all elves in both mind and body, but his obssession with the Silmarills and his rash oath led to his ruin. About Finarfin less is known than either of the other two so it is difficult to like or dislike him. Fingolfin was very noble and loyal, braving the curse of Manwe to remain loyal to his brother.

But my favorite of all the "F"s is Finrod Felagund.
Cloveress
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 21, 2005 01:20
Oh Iceman you have what I wanted to say so much. I love Finrod Felagund so much too!!! I actually wanted to vote for Finarfin because of Finrod, but then thought that wouldn't be so fair.

Finrod is really the one who did a lot of uniting. Well, he had the most friends anyways, and he liked peace and light. And he was kind and understanding. Finarfin probably had these qualities too but he dropped out of the story too soon.

Fingolfin is a worthy choice. He forgave Feanor, he kept his promise to Feanor, he never grudged Feanor for his father's love. And he's valiant and righteous. I voted for him...
pv
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 24, 2005 08:07
He forgave Feanor, he kept his promise to Feanor, he never grudged Feanor for his father's love. And he's valiant and righteous. I voted for him

Fingolfin always addresses or refers to Feanor as his "brother," even when he's complaining about him - "King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother Curufinwe, who is called the Spirit of Fire all too truly..."
But Feanor always addresses Fingolfin as "half-brother," indicating that he is unable to accept Fingolfin as his brother.
"See half-brother, this is sharper than thy tongue..." *brandishes sword threateningly*

Why, then, do you think Fingolfin wastes his time trying to build a relationship with Feanor? Is it out of a sense of duty, a feeling that he ought to do so? Or is it out of loyalty to his father, Finwe, who is so obviously fond of his eldest son? Does Fingolfin secretly admire Feanor's skill as a craftsman? Or does he genuinely feel some sort of affection for Feanor, despite all Feanor's faults?

On the other hand, looking at it from Feanor's point of view, do you think the Valar had the right idea in banishing him for threatening Fingolfin with a sword? Do you think that punishing and humiliating Feanor would be a good way to improve his relationship with Fingolfin? So by expressing their disapproval of Feanor's behaviour in the form of a punishment, do you think that the Valar were responsible for all the nasssty events that followed?


[Edited on 25/10/2005 by pv]
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Calaquende
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 02:03
Fingolfin is also my favourite. He's altogether noble and peaceful, but also steadfest and strong at will. Unlike Feanor he wasn't an egoist and tried to unite the Noldor even with the House of Feanor forgiving them the stealing of ships. He was really glamorous and Valar-like when he dared Morgoth and wounded him seven times bringing shame to the Dark Lord greater than ever since his liberation. Even the son's of Feanor admitted that he deserved the title: King of the Noldor.
Doesn't anyone love Finarfin? He's actually the best of the three. I should have voted for him.

Finarfin was surely very noble & wise, but since he has remained in Valinor we actually don't know enough to vote for him. His fate was not combined with the fate of Middle-earth.
Why, then, do you think Fingolfin wastes his time trying to build a relationship with Feanor? Is it out of a sense of duty, a feeling that he ought to do so? Or is it out of loyalty to his father, Finwe, who is so obviously fond of his eldest son? Does Fingolfin secretly admire Feanor's skill as a craftsman? Or does he genuinely feel some sort of affection for Feanor, despite all Feanor's faults?

It's probably because of his father who was really fond of Feanor and whom Fingolfin truely loved. He didn't want him to chose between his sons. It's also Fingolfin's private desires of peace and union that made him try to reconcile with Feanor and the close friendship between his own children and Feanor's sons (especially between Fingon & Maedhros).

[Edited on 25/10/2005 by Calaquende]
Cloveress
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 02:17
Why, then, do you think Fingolfin wastes his time trying to build a relationship with Feanor? Is it out of a sense of duty, a feeling that he ought to do so? Or is it out of loyalty to his father, Finwe, who is so obviously fond of his eldest son? Does Fingolfin secretly admire Feanor's skill as a craftsman? Or does he genuinely feel some sort of affection for Feanor, despite all Feanor's faults?


I like to think that it's because Fingolfin's heart can hold true love for his half brother and because Fingolfin is just so much more of a forgiving person. But sadly it would not be wholly accurate.

It says in the Sil. that Feanor and Fingolfin were high princes of the Noldor and "each grew jealous of his own rights" or something like that anyways. Fingolfin had been jealous himself. Yet he still found it in his heart to be kind to his halfbrother. I think this is more due to a sense of responsibility. Fingolfin feels that they are family, no matter how Feanor tries to deny it. Fingolfin actually feels the bond between him and Feanor, and he knows that this bond both blessing and curse, though maybe he saw it more as a blessing while in Aman. So in short, I think Fingolfin loved Feanor out of duty, and maybe out of love for his father too.

In this we can also say that maybe Finarfin had something to do with it. We all know Finarfin was the more gentler and kinder one. And we don't know much about him, but it was said that after Feanor threatened Fingolfin with a sword Fingolfin "said nothing but went to seek his brother Finarfin". It is clear that the bond between Fingolfin and Finarfin was strong. Maybe Finarfin, the understanding one, had some effect on his older brother? Maybe he had a certain notion of leading Fingolfin into love rather than hate for their half-brother? It does seem like something Finarfin would do.

On the other hand, looking at it from Feanor's point of view, do you think the Valar had the right idea in banishing him for threatening Fingolfin with a sword? Do you think that punishing and humiliating Feanor would be a good way to improve his relationship with Fingolfin? So by expressing their disapproval of Feanor's behaviour in the form of a punishment, do you think that the Valar were responsible for all the nasssty events that followed?


That was of course not a wise decision. But we can view the Valar as being "inexperienced" at that time. Maybe they didn't know anythig about how to rule a world before they made Arda. But it can be forgived. After all, what Feanor did was shocking to Elves who were used to peace, and the Valar knew it threatened the harmony they had made up. Feanor had commited a sin.

I had thought the Valar would have had a bit more brains than to let Feanor be humiliated. I mean, anyone would know that it wasn't the solution to one such as Feanor! They have their fault in this, but it's not wholly their fault. They made a mistake, and Feanor, it may be said, made a mistake as well. The only one who acted wholly for reasons of his own was Melkor, and in this sense, it should be he who should be blamed. All the others, are but a part of his design, yet they played that part just too well.

[Edited on 25/10/2005 by Cloveress]
elvishmusician
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 03:20
On the other hand, looking at it from Feanor's point of view, do you think the Valar had the right idea in banishing him for threatening Fingolfin with a sword? Do you think that punishing and humiliating Feanor would be a good way to improve his relationship with Fingolfin? So by expressing their disapproval of Feanor's behaviour in the form of a punishment, do you think that the Valar were responsible for all the nasssty events that followed?
I can't imagine that it would have helped the situation but I think the Valar had to do something. The Valinor had had no blood spilt there and suddenly in a place where war apparently isn't, the one being the strongest in mind and body and craft, the one to inherit the throne of the Noldor, the greatest of the First born etc suddenly draws a sword on his half-brother and threatens to (well I was going to say kill here but that's not quite right -though I see it as that) *hurt* him. This was big and made even bigger by the fact that Feanor held such an honorable position. Take this for example Child A has just hit Child B, the parents find out about and Child A is sent to his room. Child C,D,E etc look on and realise they shouldn't hit each other either cause they would then get sent to their rooms and it wouldn't be fun. Child A comes out but is still angry with Child B and blames them for the fact they got sent there -however knows that deep down they deserved it and will not show their anger toward Child B in front of their parents. Silly example but were the parents wrong in punishing Child A? Were the Valar wrong in punishing Feanor? What could have they done instead -they were looking at the whole picure not just the relationship between two brothers, how could they let something this serious go unpunished? I don't think the Valar were responsible for the events that followed, I think Morgoth was. It was he who created the disunion between the brothers to widen and whispered all sorts of things amoungst the Noldor. Before the Valar had any decisions to make regarding Feanor's behaviour, Morgoth's lies had already taken root and I don't think there was anyway they could have done it differently at that particular point.

It's probably because of his father who was really fond of Feanor and whom Fingolfin truely loved. He didn't want him to chose between his sons. It's also Fingolfin's private desires of peace and union that made him try to reconcile with Feanor and the close friendship between his own children and Feanor's sons (especially between Fingon & Maedhros).
I would have to agree with this, also I don't think he wanted his people to be divided between their love of the two princes. Btw I voted for Fingolfin :drool::love: -I'll post some reasons later but most of them have been said
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 06:12
I can't choose an absolute favourite from those three; all of them were great in some way that the others weren't.

I see Fëanor a lot like someone I know in real life. He's extremely intelligent, a generous host, a true friend, basically a very caring person; but, he's also a bit oversensitive, especially if he feels that someone is trying to walk over him, and all too easily jumps on someone who he feels has insulted him or his "Nerdanel". I greatly admire that man, but don't think that I could live with him.

Fingolfin is more level-headed and diplomatic, someone who leads by example. That certainly made him a better king than Fëanor would ever have been. But, he wasn't just Mr. Nice Guy either; pride and jealousy were among his characteristics as well, and in The Shibboleth of Fëanor in HoME 12, he claims that he is the one who wants to avenge his father, and that Fëanor is only after the Silmarils.

Of the three, Finarfin seems to have the most of common sense. But, because he remained in Valinor, his character remains rather obscure. Perhaps something of it can be deduced from the characters of his children, Finrod and Galadriel in the first place.
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 02:37
I voted for Finarfin, he was the wisest, the most faithful, and the most thoughtful, I always remember him as the voice that counseled careful thinking when Fëanor was rash, and he asked the Noldor to remember that everything they had was a gift of the Valar.

It is true however that as Fëanor said, the songs of the battles of the Noldor would live forever, and that Finarfin took no place in the songs. But I'm still inclined more towards wisdom and prudence than to a tragic courage, even if it's beautiful.
pv
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 05:38
Tar_Meneldur said : I voted for Finarfin, he was the wisest, the most faithful, and the most thoughtful, I always remember him as the voice that counseled careful thinking when Fëanor was rash, and he asked the Noldor to remember that everything they had was a gift of the Valar.

I fully agree! As I said, I should have voted for him, too!
Morwinyoniel said about Fingolfin: But, he wasn't just Mr. Nice Guy either; pride and jealousy were among his characteristics as well, and in The Shibboleth of Fëanor in HoME 12, he claims that he is the one who wants to avenge his father, and that Fëanor is only after the Silmarils.

If we followed this line of thought, we would arrive at a startlingly different motive for Fingolfin's decision to follow Feanor - sibling rivalry, rather than brotherly supportiveness.

"Feanor, I loved father better than you. I'm the one who wants to avenge his death, not you. So you want to fight Morgoth? Well, I'll kill him before you do. So watch it, brother, just watch it. I'm coming with you."

Sometimes, people follow their rivals to new places just to continue to pick fights with them. Could that be why Fingolfin followed Feanor?
Cloveress said : But we can view the Valar as being "inexperienced" at that time. Maybe they didn't know anythig about how to rule a world before they made Arda.

That's a good way of looking at it, because most people would say that they were either "good" or "bad," and there are lots of grey areas in between.
But does Tolkien's portrayal of the Valar gell with your idea of God? I personally would expect literary Gods to be more tactful and less punitive when dealing with a problem of (as Elvishmusician put it) Child A not getting on with Child B.
Elvishmusician said : Take this for example Child A has just hit Child B, the parents find out about and Child A is sent to his room. Child C,D,E etc look on and realise they shouldn't hit each other either cause they would then get sent to their rooms and it wouldn't be fun. Child A comes out but is still angry with Child B and blames them for the fact they got sent there -however knows that deep down they deserved it and will not show their anger toward Child B in front of their parents. Silly example but were the parents wrong in punishing Child A? Were the Valar wrong in punishing Feanor? What could have they done instead -they were looking at the whole picure not just the relationship between two brothers, how could they let something this serious go unpunished?

You're right, Elvish, punishing Child A is not likely to improve his relationship with Child B, and might even make him more sneaky when he next attacks Child B. But something this serious cannot be ignored. But is there a better way to deal with the problem?
Modern child psychologists Adele Farber & Elaine Mazlish say that in such a situation, Child A should be treated with love and understanding. As many of us would agree that Feanor is extremely childish, do you think this approach might have worked with him?


[Edited on 26/10/2005 by pv]
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elvishmusician
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 07:22
Modern child psychologists Adele Farber & Elaine Mazlish say that in such a situation, Child A should be treated with love and understanding.
I won't go into this much as I fear it is becoming off topic but treating Feanor with love and understanding might have been good but they can't let him go unpunished or elves who looked up to him would consider that behaviour acceptable and those who looked up to Fingolfin would have considered Feanor's actions toward him worthy of punishment and maybe become even more resentful toward Feanor because of this. On top of this Feanor would not have had any chance to see that his actions were wrong, when someone is that strong willed it is very hard to make them see reason when they don't want to. The book even says that 'few changed his mind by counsel, none by force.' I think once his mind was made up it was made up and the Valar could only look at the wider picture as I think at this point the damage had already been done by Morgoth.

Sometimes, people follow their rivals to new places just to continue to pick fights with them. Could that be why Fingolfin followed Feanor?
The book says he did not forget his words before the throne of Manwe, I think while he wanted vengence Fingolfin did not have this as his sole desire for going to ME -to a noble character keeping your word is very important.
pv
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 08:44
treating Feanor with love and understanding might have been good but they can't let him go unpunished or elves who looked up to him would consider that behaviour acceptable


In LotR, Tolkien criticises Sauron for disciplining the Orcs with the threat of punishment, and contrasts this with the "good" side, which chooses to be good out of their own free will.
Would you say that the Silmarillion differs from LotR in that he advocates discipline by punishment?
And talking of Feanor, if the Valar are merely making an example of him to the other elves, wouldn't it be better if they tried to improve the poor relationship between Feanor & Fingolfin, by exposing Morgoth's lies to both brothers?


[Edited on 26/10/2005 by pv]
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elvishmusician
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 25, 2005 11:47
In LotR, Tolkien criticises Sauron for disciplining the Orcs with the threat of punishment, and contrasts this with the "good" side, which chooses to be good out of their own free will.
Would you say that the Silmarillion differs from LotR in that he advocates discipline by punishment?

In LOTR there was punishment also. One can look at the laws of Gondor and the situation of Beregond. He disobeyed the rule regarding his post but was offered mercy by Aragorn, however he was still punishable by law. To quote CoE's very own encyclopedia
Once the war was over, his fate had to be decided by Aragorn. The usual penalty for those who deserted their post, and spilled blood in the Hallows was death. But because of his valour in battle, and his unending loyalty to Faramir, he was allowed to move to Emyn Arnen to protect and serve Faramir. He then become Captain of the White Company there.


I think the thing Tolkien was getting at was the orcs were forced to do everything by the threat of punishment. You look at the nation of Gondor, it had laws as every nation does but the men were not forced in every area by threats. Most of them went to war for the love of their country and wanting to protect their nation. I think Tolkien may have been getting at more the forcing people to go to war etc and the lack of free-will under Sauron's regime.

And talking of Feanor, if the Valar are merely making an example of him to the other elves, wouldn't it be better if they tried to improve the poor relationship between Feanor & Fingolfin, by exposing Morgoth's lies to both brothers?
Perhaps, maybe the Valar were really concerned about Feanor's behaviour and felt he needed to be banished, maybe in the hope that he would change. Like I said in my previous post Feanor drawing a sword on his brother was a huge thing in this time of the history fo the Valinor. I think the lies were exposed already but it doesn't seem to have helped the situation. Feanor could still not see that he had done anything wrong or was too proud to admit it (even if he 'knew it in his heart'). The lies of Morgoth had been festering for a very long time and had taken root, I think also hurts and misinterpretations had already been committed on both sides, its like a lot of things in life -this wasn't that small I doubt the Valar could have got them to make up that easily, it wasn't like they could just say 'Now Feanor say you're sorry to Fingolfin' and 'Fingolfin are you sorry too?' *pictures Fingolfin nodding* 'well then we're all friends again now hey?' I just don't think it was that simple and the pride of both Feanor and Fingolfin was very strong -I doubt either wished to admit they were wrong and both must have hated the fact that Morgoth had deceived them (this would be very embarrassing for a prince anywhere).
Cloveress
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 26, 2005 02:38
I just don't think it was that simple and the pride of both Feanor and Fingolfin was very strong -I doubt either wished to admit they were wrong and both must have hated the fact that Morgoth had deceived them (this would be very embarrassing for a prince anywhere).


I agree with you here. The lies of Morgoth were not meant to make the Noldor love him, they were meant to destroy the Noldor by setting a rift between the two princes. And well, either way it would have achieved. Because Feanor had no love for Fingolfin in the first place and well let's see...I don't think Fingolfin would really feel too friendly towards his cold and arrogant brother either. This family can be described as "delicate". And Morgoth knew that all it needed was a little push and it would fall into a dark hole. So he spread lies and gave the "push". It didn't matter whether Feanor hated or loved Morgoth, it only mattered that Feanor hated Fingolfin.
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 26, 2005 07:34
Wow, I've missed some fascinating posts since I last looked this thread.

On the sword incident - I'm not sure it could be helped, but the Valar's decision to take matters into their own hands did nothing to mitigate Feanor's paranoia about the restrictions of the Valar. Just for the sake of argument, if it hadn't been Feanor in this situation - if Random Elf #1 had threatened Random Elf #2 - I don't think the Valar would have had to get involved. There was a king of the Noldor, after all. But they couldn't trust Finwe as an objective judge, under the circumstances, and I've always figured that's why they intervened. The unintended downside of all this, though, is that it sort of makes Feanor look like their subject. Of course the Valar don't and wouldn't try to rule the Valar directly, but that's how it looks to him. So yes, I think the decisions of the Valar had consequences for "the nasssty events that followed," but it's hard to say what else they could have done.

[Edited on 27/10/2005 by RavenLady]
Calaquende
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 27, 2005 05:59
I think that Feanor deserved the punishment:
- he was the only one who thratened another Quendi with a sword not being seriously provoked
- he spoke of rebellion against Valar's "thraldom" & of leaving Valinor, unjustly speaking in the name of all Noldor (he wasn't their king)
- he showed no regret after the event
- he punishment was laid down on him by Mandos who is the most wise of all the Ainur and new the best what punishment should be laid on him
Besides 12 years of banishment from Tirion seem much for us, but are just a short time for an immortal in a eternal land. I agree with elvishmusician that if such an unlawful deed had gone unpunished it might have brought chaos in the whole society & might have made Feanor's foes seek revenge on him.
If we followed this line of thought, we would arrive at a startlingly different motive for Fingolfin's decision to follow Feanor - sibling rivalry, rather than brotherly supportiveness.

"Feanor, I loved father better than you. I'm the one who wants to avenge his death, not you. So you want to fight Morgoth? Well, I'll kill him before you do. So watch it, brother, just watch it. I'm coming with you."

Sometimes, people follow their rivals to new places just to continue to pick fights with them. Could that be why Fingolfin followed Feanor?

Interesting notion, but actually I can't imagine it being so. Just look how Fingolfin treats Feanor:
For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance'.
Then Feanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead, I will follow. May no new grief devide us'.
'I hear thee' said Feanor. 'So be it.' But they did not know the meaning that their words would bear

Therefore it's not will to compete that made Fingolfin follow Feanor: had it been so he would never have sworn obedience to him! It was his hastily given promise - the words that "would bear" the meaning "they did not know" that were crucial for his decision. Thus he had either to join Feanor in his journey or be left behind with shame & dishonour. Practically he had no choice!
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: October 28, 2005 02:14
Feanor did deserve the punishment, and to the Valar, it was quite obvious that they needed to punish him in some way. Though perhaps humiliation was not such a wise track. After all Feanor was proud, and since they all knew that in banishing Feanor the lies of Morgoth would seem to have been fulfilled they should have thought it over a bit more carefully.

Though I still wouldn't blame the Valar for what happened, as I said before, they might have been a bit too "naive" in their own right, for didn't it say that Manwe couldn't understand Melkor's heart because Melkor had something (presumably evil) which untainted and evil-free Manwe did not have.
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: February 20, 2008 04:59
Feanor is definetly my least favorite on the list.

I think it's kinda funny that Tolkien named a lot of Elves according to their hair.

Examples:Fingolfin,Finarfin,Finrod,Finduilas,etc.
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: February 21, 2008 09:04
The following is highly simplified due to time constraints, but here is how I see the sons of Finwë:

Fëanor - skilled but proud
Fingolfin - brave but emotional (esp. wrath)
Finarfin - wise but indecisive

Each has their ups and downs, but I relate the most with Finarfin.
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Post RE: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: April 08, 2009 06:35
I chose Fingolfin. Feanor, for all his glory, turned evil and I cannot separate him from his loathsome deeds. Finarfin was a good Elf, with no stain on his record, but he seems almost meek for lack of great deeds.

Fingolfin, however, was not perfect, but he was great. Not prefect because he followed Feanor into exile...and a part of his host took part in the Kinslaying, though unknowingly. Great because he led the Noldor host through the terrors of the Grinding Ice, and fought tirelessly in Middle Earth against Morgoth....well, I could ramble on for quite some time about how much I like Fingolfin and why, but I don't want to bore anyone

My favorite Fingolfin moments...

1. When he led the Noldor into Middle Earth at the first Rising of the sun

2. His epic battle to the death with Morgoth...Ringil, the blade of ice against Grond, the hammer of the underworld.
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Post Re: F, F and F - the alliterative brothers...
on: February 11, 2013 01:58
*Bump: There's some good dicussion here on the characters and interelationship of Feanor, Finarfin and Fingolfin.
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