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Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: Unfinished Tales » QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: October 31, 2005 12:28
Sador to Tûrin concerning Men's interactions with elves; followed by Tûrin;
'And yet I think sometimes that it might have been better if we had never met them, but had walked in lowlier ways. For already they are ancient in knowledge; and they are proud and enduring. In their light we are dimmed or we burn with too quick a flame, and the weight of our doom lies the heavier on us.'

'But my father loves them'; said Tûrin.' He says that we have learned nearly all that we know from them, and have been made a nobler people; and that the Men that have lately come over the Mountains are hardly betterthan Orcs."

'That is true.' said Sador; 'At least of some of us . But the up-climbing is painful and from high places it is easy to fall low.'
Figwit
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: October 31, 2005 10:10
I love this quote, because in a way it shows how I personally feel about the Elves. It seems like Men can never achieve anything, because they can never achieve to be Elves. Though I don't know if maybe Tolkien didn't set the standards so high, and is trying to say that you can only be happy if you are yourself?
Calaquende
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 01, 2005 01:58
Yes, that's a really good quote! . For me it shows the tragic of men & elves close relationship: elves & men fates are so different (immortal life & death) that when they try to combine them by close friendship or love it always causes grief for both of the races. For elves because they must experience the departure of their friends (either by their death or rapid development) and still linger on (Beleg gives such a hint about Nellas when meeting Turin and his rouges) . For men because they are condemned to either be "dimmed" by the glory of Eldar or try hard to level with them but "burn with too quick a flame" while trying to achieve it in their short lifes. We can actually see this drama in all 3 men-elf marriages. While the paths of the two races can join for a liittle while, the purpose of their lifes is different and, sooner or later, there will have to come to the sorrowful moment of parting.
Elioclya
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 01, 2005 04:44
I don't know if maybe Tolkien didn't set the standards so high, and is trying to say that you can only be happy if you are yourself?


That's how I like to think of it... if I look at it in the sense that the Men of Middle Earth can never fully achieve anything then I start to get a little depressed... I think it's a difficult point. While it's clear that in a lot of ways the Elves are far superior and almost the idealised version of Men, it does kind of make them insignificant if you look at it like that!
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 01, 2005 06:44
That's how I see it as well.

And, after all, in the Third Age:
These were the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One Ring was lost; but they attempted nothing new, living in the memory of the past. (LOTR, Appendix B)

So, even if Men envied the Elves who were seemingly so much higher and better beings than themselves, in the end it was they who became stronger.
Calaquende
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 02, 2005 01:47
So, even if Men envied the Elves who were seemingly so much higher and better beings than themselves, in the end it was they who became stronger.

Exactly! While the elves are more powerful, fair & wise - men focus on the future and are much more progressive, what will make them the major race of future Middle-earth.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 02, 2005 02:01
i sometimes wonder if this is similar to the reactions of third world peoples when meeting those of us from the industrialized world?

[Edited on 6/11/2005 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Figwit
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 02, 2005 10:07
i sometimes wonder if this is similar to the reactions of thrid world peoples when meeting those of us from the industrialized world?


That's an interesting thought, Pb, but I don't think it can compare. If you look at Húrin for instance, he sees no fault in the Elves. I think Tolkiens Men were under the impression - in general - that Elves are perfect.
freya
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Post RE: QOTW Oct 31st 1.II. Narn i hîn Húrin (part 1)
on: November 04, 2005 07:41
quote:

So, even if Men envied the Elves who were seemingly so much higher and better beings than themselves, in the end it was they who became stronger.

i don't feel that men are necessarily stronger. Both elves and men are given different gifts. The elves " . . . love of the Earth . . is more single and poignant [than men] (Silmarillion) ; moreover, unlike men, their fate is tied to the earth. Men are called "The Strangers" because their ties to the earth are weaker -- if this is their "strength," it is also their weakness. What has transpired on earth since their dominion bears credence to this thought.
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