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Anneruon
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Post Animosity Among Elves
on: November 08, 2005 05:46
How did differnt Elves view each other. Like did the High Elves of Rivendell look down upon the wood elves from Mirkwood for being more primitive. Or was Lothlorien the most superior because of its age. Could someone explain the differnt elven relations? Also if High elves are from Rivendell and Wood elves are from Mirkwood. Where do half elves live and what kind of elves are in Lothlorien.

[Edited on 8/10/2007 by cirdaneth]
Cloveress
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 09, 2005 12:47
The High Elves of Rivendell didn't really look down on the wood-elves, but in the First Age, some of the Noldor (mostly the sons of Feanor) did look down upon the Sindar. The Elves of Rivendell were not as haughty as their ancestors, because most of them were probably of the house of Finarfin or Fingolfin and they were less harsh and more wise. We cannot say that Lothlorien is more "superior" or anything, only that the Lady that dwells there is most ancient and arguably most powerful.

High Elves are not necessarily all from Rivendell, some are in Lothlorien and maybe some are even dwelling in the Havens. Wood-elves are not all from Mirkwood either. Many live in Lorien.

But the relations of the elves. Well, I don't know if you've read the Silmarillion or not. So I'll just sum this up as best as I can.

There are three Elven tribes.
The first tribe is the Vanyar, who all went to Valinor and stayed there. These were the Elves of Light and they were most fair, with bright golden hair. But they don't come into the stories much.
The second would be the Noldor. These all went to Valinor too, but then some (led by Feanor) rebelled against the Valar and came back to Middle-Earth. The Noldor were all great craftsmen and smiths.
The third tribe would be the Teleri. They were the greatest in number.The Sea-Elves and the Wodd-Elves are all Teleri. Some went to Valinor and stayed there, but a great deal of them stayed in Middle-Earth and never went to Valinor. These, along with the Avari are called the Elves of the Dark who have not seen the blessed light of the two trees.

Because the Noldor had come from Valinor and had the teachings of the Valar (mostly Aule and Yavanna) they were of course more skilled than the wild elves in ME. But most of the Noldor didn't really look down on them because at that time King Thingol (who was a Sindarin King) had massive halls that could match even those of the Noldor. The Wood-elves weren't that primitive. They had the Dwarves to help them and I guess that they learned a lot of craft from them too.

There aren't really that many half-elves, y'know. Just Elrond and his chidren. And they live in Rivendell and Lothlorien.

As to what kind of Elves live in Lothlorien, well, the Lady Galadriel is Noldorin, though she actually has Telerin and Vanyarin blood in her too. Celeborn is a Sinda. And their people are mostly Sindarin or Silvan elves. Wood-elves, in other words.
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 09, 2005 02:35
Weren't the Teleri only the sea elves in Valinor? You forgot the elves who never traveled west, the Avaria...or something like that.
Ninjoo
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 09, 2005 03:11
There were more than just three 'tribes'. I hope i remember correctly:

The first arrangement is: Calaquendi (Elves of Light, because they have seen the light of the Two Trees) and Moriquendi (Dark Elves, because they haven't seen the light of the Trees).


The Calaquendi were the Elves that actually reached Aman:
~The Vanyar
~The Noldor
~The Teleri


Now the Teleri was the largest group, and some of the Teleri didn't want to go to Aman, or by some reason didn't get to Aman. All the Elves that didn't reach Aman, are considered among the Moriquendi.
The Moriquendi can be devided in a bunch of groups:

~Sindar (Did set out into the west, but never got there. They stayed with their King in Beleriand)
~Nandor (Did set out, but refused to cross the Misty Mountains)(including the Laiquendi (Green Elves) and Silvan Elves (Wood Elves))
~Avari (Did not set out at all)

Some of the Noldor who went to Aman, later came back. That group is known as 'the Exiles'.



That's about it, i think...
atalante_star
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 09, 2005 01:10
Like this

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arvegil
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 09, 2005 05:27
To respond to your query about Lothlorien's and Mirkwood's ethnic makeup, they are a combination of Nandor and Avari, with some Sindar and one Noldor leader (in Lothlorien).

The Nandor originally settled the area around Anduin. Quendi and Eldar indicates that the Avari did drift west and the Tereri-related Avari mixed in with some of their kin. Thus, Rivendell and Lothlorien are no longer pure Nandor, but Nandor with a minority strain of Avari.

After the First Age ended, some Sindarin Elves hostile to the remaining Noldor refused to live in Lindon and went to Lothlorien and Mirkwood, where they became nobility. Oropher, father of Thranduril, was the most famous of them. Finally, after the destruction of Ost-In-Edhil, Celeborn (Sindar) and Galadriel (Noldor) arrived in Lothlorien and became de facto rulers, although Galadriel never assumed any royal title, as it would have been politically unacceptable for the only Noldor Elf present to rule over a non-Noldor kingdom.

There is some lingering hostility between the Noldor and some Sindar, because of two attacks that the Noldorin House of Feanor made on Sindar in the First Age: one destroyed the Sindarin kingdom of Doriath; the other destroyed several Sindar/ Noldor mixed refugee settlements at the mouths of Sirion.

[Edited on 10/11/2005 by arvegil]

[Edited on 10/11/2005 by arvegil]
celebrin_uial
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 10, 2005 01:24
Didnt Galadriel and Celeborn become de facto rulers of Lothlorien after King Amroth died in the sea?

As for Sindar and Noldor relations I believe there could have been some cultural differences over who dealt with dwarves. The people of Mirkwood and of Doriath, after the first age that is, didnt hold dwarves in high esteem due to the destruction of Doriath, and vice versa. The Noldor, especially of Eregion had many dealings with the dwarves, would this have equaled bad blood between the two tribes?
Anneruon
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 10, 2005 02:50
So dark elves are considered all the elves that stayed on middle earth. So some noldor and sindar, like the ones in lothlorien, rivendell, and mirkwood, I always thought dark elves= evil elves. Also I have 2 more questions. Which race of elves is very gifted in archery? And if the "dark elves" like those of rivendell are "exiles" how come when they die or leave middle earth they get to go to the grey havens anyway????


Thx n Godbless
daffadowndilly
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 10, 2005 07:31
I don't think any race is particularly skilled over the others in archery. The dark elves aren't exiles. The Noldor are more like exiles. To make a really long story really, really short, all the elves were invited to go to Valinor. The dark elves are all the ones that didn't go or turned back along the way. The Noldor, after a while in Valinor, followed Feanor to Middle Earth despite the Valar's warning so they were banned from going back.
Cloveress
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 11, 2005 01:12
all the elves were invited to go to Valinor. The dark elves are all the ones that didn't go or turned back along the way. The Noldor, after a while in Valinor, followed Feanor to Middle Earth despite the Valar's warning so they were banned from going back.


And afterwards the Valar sent an army out to rescue Beleriand at the end of the First Age. The Exiles were then allowed to return to Valinor again (except fro Galadriel). Some did, some didn't. An they mingled pretty much with the dark elves. And then *poof* it's the third age.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Animosity Among Elves
on: November 11, 2005 11:57
I recall that there were some feelings of animosity after the Destruction of Beleriand. I cannot recall where I read it but the elves of Mirkwood, , were not impressed with the Noldor coming from the destruction of Beleriand and moved deep into Mirkwood to limit contact with them.
In the Battle of the Last Alliance, The Mirkwood Elves refused to use the arms and armour of the more battle trained Noldor and went to battle lightly armed and as a result were heavily slaughtered by Sauron's forces.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Animosity Among Elves
on: June 09, 2012 02:11
*bump
I believe Oropher moved his people several times in order to distance them from the Noldor.
Elthir
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Post Re: Animosity Among Elves
on: June 11, 2012 07:47
PotbellyHairyfoot wrote: 'In the Battle of the Last Alliance, The Mirkwood Elves refused to use the arms and armour of the more battle trained Noldor and went to battle lightly armed and as a result were heavily slaughtered by Sauron's forces.'



A minor quibble admittedly, but I don't think this is necessarily so. The source is Unfinished Tales, Appendix B to The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn, The Sindarin Princes Of The Silvan Elves...

... wherein it is noted that the Silvan Elves were ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West '... and also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-galad. Their losses were thus more than they need have been...'

So one might infer that the Wood-elves actually refused better arms, assuming the Western Eldar had enough to well equip them in the first place -- but their losses could be a combination of not placing themselves under the direct command of Gil-galad, plus the simple fact that they had lesser weaponry and armour.

It is further noted that Malgalad and more than half his following were cut off from the main host, and that Oropher had rushed forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance.

To me these seem to note (or imply) something about the tactical choices of the Silvan Elves here; but in any case, again I don't think it's necessarily a given that they refused better armour and weapons, if in fact the Eldar had had enough to spare for all these Wood-elves.



Cirdaneth wrote: 'I believe Oropher moved his people several times in order to distance them from the Noldor.'


Hmm, this might depend upon which text one consults.

From the same source as mentioned above, it is noted that Oropher withdrew north beyond the Gladden fields: '... to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria (...) and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lorien' [but yet their was intercourse between his people and their kin across the river in any case].

However...

... another text (see The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, note 14) notes that Oropher had moved three times northward from their dwellings about Amon Lanc: '... being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron'

Which account might supersede the other is hard to say, but here we have a notably different motive anyway.
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