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Figwit
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Post 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: December 28, 2005 12:34
Okay, first of all - SORRY for being so late with this one! It really was my intention to be more punctual this time around, but real life sort of got in the way.

Okay, so Erendis and Aldarion.

Got a few comments we might be able to start from, I'll post them in a sec.

Good thing Pb was punctual as ever. His quotes of the week deal with:
- Aldarion's first voyage
- Tar-Meneldur's reaction to Gil-galad's letter
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: December 28, 2005 12:42
My own thoughts:

1. The subtitle is 'The Mariner's Wife'. This gives the impression that the story isn't about Aldarion (though he seems to be the main character throughout), but about Erendis. I also find it strange that I can't read it without chosing Erendis' side. I cannot for the life of me sympathise with Aldarion. I don't think it's merely because I'm a woman, but because Tolkien wrote it that way. Anyone agree with me?

2. What I also noticed is the dubious role of the Sea, here. It's like everything bad is associated with the Sea - and especially looking at the further history of Númenor this seems to make sense. My question then is, is this a tendency in Tolkien? Is the Sea always a dangerous place? The ultimate mariner, Eärendil, doesn't sail the Sea - he sails the heavens (this also ties in with the description of Meneldur, not caring for the Sea but a lover of the stars, and a very wise King).
Another thought on the side - the heavens were long thought of as the seas of heaven (see the jewish tradition for instance). Is Tolkien thinking of this, here?

3. I also loved Ancalimë. To my knowledge there are very few children in Tolkien's books, and Ancalimë is such a powerful character. I especially loved the way he seems to have described her later on (as becomes clear through Christopher Tolkien's notes): very stubborn, a mixture of the worst of her mother and father. And still you can't help but feel for the girl.

4. There's also a very powerful message about marriage in this chapter, which I think is best expressed through this line: "Half of yourself you have ever neglected." This is such a beautiful way of describing love - as finding and taking care of the other half of yourself, and it's also a very biblical way of thinking about marriage, and at the same time semi-platonic. I love it.
Miththoliel
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: January 09, 2006 08:45
Just catching up on the reading and had a few comments:
1. The subtitle is 'The Mariner's Wife'. This gives the impression that the story isn't about Aldarion (though he seems to be the main character throughout), but about Erendis. I also find it strange that I can't read it without choosing Erendis' side. I cannot for the life of me sympathise with Aldarion. I don't think it's merely because I'm a woman, but because Tolkien wrote it that way. Anyone agree with me?


I have mixed feelings on this one. While I can sympathize with Erendis on the long separations I can't help but think she should have just gone with him. She continued to act selfishly and childish which made worse the whole situation. Aldarion did try to live a bit on land and also wanted her to go with him. I think she should have swallowed her pride, faced her fear and gone along with an open mind.

2. ....................................... Another thought on the side - the heavens were long thought of as the seas of heaven (see the jewish tradition for instance). Is Tolkien thinking of this, here?


I like to think that is exactly how Tolkien was thinking...of the heavens as seas. And fondly referred to as such.
3. I also loved Ancalimë. To my knowledge there are very few children in Tolkien's books, and Ancalimë is such a powerful character. I especially loved the way he seems to have described her later on (as becomes clear through Christopher Tolkien's notes): very stubborn, a mixture of the worst of her mother and father. And still you can't help but feel for the girl.


I agree, you said that perfectly, Figwit!

4. There's also a very powerful message about marriage in this chapter, which I think is best expressed through this line: "Half of yourself you have ever neglected." This is such a beautiful way of describing love - as finding and taking care of the other half of yourself, and it's also a very biblical way of thinking about marriage, and at the same time semi-platonic. I love it.


There were indeed powerful messages regarding marriage! Another one that really touched me was on page 183 where Erendis mother is giving her advice:

'All or nothing, Erendis,' said Nuneth. So you were as a child. But you love this man, and he is a great man, not to speak of his rank; and you will not cast out your love from your heart so easily, not without great hurt to yourself. A woman must share her husband's love with his work and the fire of his spirit, or make him a thing not loveable.'

Her mother is telling her that she will not only hurt herself but also damage Aldarion. I found this very interesting and wise.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: January 09, 2006 09:58
The marriage was a huge tragedy and only got in the way. They shared nothing in common , were both old enough to get beyond infatuation; and they were both too proud and stubborn to really try and share in their partner's interests. The fact that they stayed married may be a reflection of Tolkien's catholicism as, by any standards I can think of, they would have been better off divorced or with the marriage annulled.
I find them both at fault. He knew he wouldn't be home much at all and should have found someone who would either share his interests and could at least tolerate being a captain's wife, and she, knowing that she wouldn't travel with him and hated what he did, should have refused the proposal.

[Edited on 9/1/2006 by PotbellyHairyfoot]

[Edited on 10/1/2006 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
legolasfan27
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: January 10, 2006 08:41
Just a few thoughts on returning to the BC after so long...hi, everyone! *Waves*

I agree with PbH that I find them both to be at fault. I found it hard to understand why they would marry when they so obviously hated the things that the other loved.

That said, I also know that when you genuinely love someone you are both prepared to tolerate things they love that you have little patience for and to accommodate this in your own life by expressing some kind of interest. I suppose they both tried, with her bringing him the returning wreath and his trying to live on land for a while, but to my mind they didn't try hard enough. Each was instead determined that the other would love what they love, seemingly to the exclusion of all else.

On Ancalime, indeed I also find her to be the worst of her parents, but what's to be expected after the way she was raised. Can you imagine having two wilful and headstrong parents? Usually, it's only one parent that is like that.

I also agree that they were both bound by tradition and that the Professor's catholicism was showing when they wouldn't break the engagement or end the marriage. While I believe marriage ought to be forever, such patently mismatched people can only make themselves and others miserable by staying together.
Rulea
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: January 14, 2006 01:26
One of my favorite stories in the whole book! I love the romance between Aldarion and Erendis amd the hatred between them that follows. If Erendis would have accepted Aldarion's love the sea and tried to participate in it, like her mother advises, I think things would have worked out ok!
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AinarielPalantir
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: February 12, 2006 04:18
Better late than never, right?

Oh my, that marriage was bad. It has two stubborn people, dreams, passion, duties, and not enough speaking.

I am a stubborn and a bit controlling person so I very much recognize myself in Erendis and sympathise her. And I think Tolkien wrote it the way that if Aldarion would have kept his promise about the two years away after their wedding, things might have been different. (Have to say I again sympathise Erendis after going through many unkept promises...)

But I agree that also Erendis was too unyielding and as legolasfan said I think she should have tried to understand Aldarion and try to get over her fear for the Sea, at least a bit.

But there's still the fact that Aldarion's help was very much needed in M-E and that's why he couldn't keep his promise. But so was his presence in Numenor needed. So if the wife has to share and wait and be patience, shouldn't the husband put his own land and his own wife before other duties? Or does love always have to loose to work and duties?

And of course what else could come of this kind of marriage than a cold, stubborn daughter who hates men... But at least in this chapter Tolkien actually describes women, telling something else about them than what colour eyes or hair they have.

Tolkien really likes to write about very flawed persons. But they are never just unambigiously evil or bad. There's always many sides and explanations to their flaws and actions and the reader really has to wonder their own views about moral and life in general in difficult situations. Ingenious!

[Edited on 13/2/2006 by AinarielPalantir]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: February 13, 2006 12:20
He had two choices to make , Her or his love of the sea. You could make a case for his choice being the more altruistic as goinf to sea may have served more people but it was , in reality, the far more selfish choice.
filume
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Post RE: 2.II. Aldarion and Erendis
on: February 21, 2006 12:45
I absolutely love Aldarion and Erendis! It´s great and sad story!
And I love the story about Húrin..do you know which I think?
I don´t know which of these two stories is better. It can´t be spoken.
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