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Ealinde
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Post Tolkien and Dreams
on: July 30, 2006 10:07
In Lord of the Rings at least, dreams have played a very important role.

If Faramir and then Boromir hadn't had their dreams, Boromir wouldn't have come to Rivendell, maybe an elf lord like Glorfindel would have taken his place, the balrog might have been defeated, Gandalf the Grey wouldn't have been Gandalf the White, the Fellowship wouldn't have broken up because Boromir wouldn't have been there to try and steal the Ring, Merry and Pippin wouldn't have persuaded the ents to go to war, Frod and Sam wouldn't have encountered Gollum, Rohan would have fallen, Minas Tirith would have been burnt to the ground, The Return of the King would no longer be there....

You get my drift, don't you? Lord of the Rings would have been an entirely different novel.

And there is also Frodo's dream of Gandalf in FotR. It's not very important, but it seems to be prophetic.

What does everyone think about this?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 01, 2006 06:20
True, Tolkien used quite a lot of prophetic or otherwise important dreams. In the LOTR, in addition to those that you mentioned, there are Frodo's dreams of the Sea and the Undying Lands, and the hobbits' nightmares in the first night in Tom Bombadil's house, of which especially Frodo's and Merry's have some hint of what is to come. In the Silmarillion, Ulmo speaks to Finrod and Turgon by dreams that make both of them build the strong hidden fortresses of Nargothrond and Gondolin; and, in The Fall of Gondolin in the Lost Tales, Idril has a dream that warns her about Maeglin and leads her to prepare a secret escape route from the city.
Ealinde
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 04, 2006 07:57
I don't remember Frodo's dream about the Undying Land. When was it?
punk_angel
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 15, 2006 09:37
If it's the right one, it was at the beginning of 'Fog on the Barrow Downs' in FotR:

But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a aweet singing running through his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at all last it was rolled beck, and a far green country under a seift sunrise.


Again, it may not be the one mentioned, and I'm sure there are more, but this one was fresh in my mind.

I've belived for a long time that dreams can have great power, and I like Tolkien's use of them. We all have dreams that seem significant or prophetic, and including this aspect made Middle Earth seem that much more real to me.
Ealinde
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 16, 2006 01:25
Dreams are a really important part of my life (I dream more than I sleep) and even though I don't understand half of them, I really love my dreams. And I agree with you when you say Tolkien's dreams made Middle Earth more real.

I wonder who could have 'sent' those dreams? Maybe it was the Vala who was in charge of rest (can't remember the name) or maybe it was Eru. It's staggering to actually consider that in Tolkien's world.

And I think you were right about the dream Morwin referred to.
punk_angel
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 16, 2006 05:55
I think you may have something there. Lorien, properly Irmo, is master of dreams and visions, and his wife Este if in charge of rest. I hadn't even thought of that possibility.
Ealinde
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 18, 2006 04:03
Maybe Eru sent a message to Manwe, who in turn told Irmo to send Faramir the dream. Consider the siginificance - the dream came to Faramir first probably because Irmo/Manwe/Eru knew that he was more worthy. When they saw that he had dismissed the dream, Boromir got one also. I wonder if they ever considered the fact that Boromir might end up being part of the Fellowship
ElfmaidenofLorien
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 18, 2006 05:37
Thats right Ealinde. I never really thought of the dreams as being so significant but they really are! My favorite dream in the movie was the one where Faramir dreams of Boromir after his victory in Osgiliath, that one was sad!
'Not even the gods above can separate the two of us, no nothing can come between you and I.'
Ealinde
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 25, 2006 06:03
Was that in the extended edition? I've never seen that (though I'd probably do just about anything to get my hands on it )
vicarcat
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 25, 2006 11:18
OK I could be wrong about this but:
I think the link between Eru and all of the Valar is a direct one
and probably consists of visions or dreams so that Manwe and Irmo
would have gotten the message at the same time and then acted
jointly to do Eru's will...
Sending dreams and aid to those whom they were instructed to,
in order that all might be in accord.

And I suspect that the Valar are stiill sending aid and dreams to
people here on Earth...

Just my 2 cents...
Lomelindi_of_Moonlight
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 28, 2006 02:45
I completely agree, the dreams they have are like Galadriel's mirror, in that it predicts what may occur. It's up to the dreamer (i.e.Faramir/Frodo) to trust in them or be encouraged by them, because they may not come to pass if they did not.
Lomelindi_of_Moonlight
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Post RE: Tolkien and Dreams
on: August 28, 2006 02:54
I also agree that it would be the influence of the Valar for these significant dreams to come about. It's almost like them giving clues without really having hands-on participation in Middle Earth.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Tolkien and Dreams
on: June 13, 2012 02:32
... and we have to remember that the Sindarin word for dream is 'olor' and one of Gandalf's names is 'Olorin'. There is also a Bridge of Dreams from Aman to Middle-Earth called the Oloré Mallé.
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