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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Barrow-wights
on: August 16, 2006 12:24
We know that they were sent to the barrows by the Witch-King and we also know what they stored in their caves and some what they were up with the hobbits, but; -- What were the barrow-wights and where did they come from?


Were they the spirits of Elves or Orcs captured by rings of power and now force to spend their existence animating the bones of the dead from the Barrows? Or -Were they just an unusual creature serving the forces of evil ?


[Edited on 16/8/2006 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
danja_san
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 16, 2006 09:35
I thought i read a reference in the incline of them being the spirits of dead kings of men in Arnor, and the later splinter kingdoms... minor wraiths so to speak...

I'll try to find the references at some point... havn't got time this eve
Celebrian
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 16, 2006 10:38
I think they are just generic evil spirits that took over the barrows after all the people were gone.
danja_san
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 17, 2006 05:50
That is true...

I think their origins, though cloudy, are probably from mortals spiked by a morgul blade...
Like Gandalf said to Frodo: "...you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a Wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord..."
The wars against Angmar were long fought in the north and I would guess many lords (of the three seperate kingdoms - mainly Rhudaur and Cardolan, then eventually Arthedain...) were taken and turned into these minor wraiths...

The Barrows themselves were originally the resting places of Eriadors kings and then later, after the desolation of the Plagues, occupied by those corrupted and under the Withkings control...

It is speculated that the Witchking visited the Downs to alert these creatures of evil; to be watchful for tresspassers!

I know I have nodirect quotesexcept Gandalfs but I stand 95% behind the ideas above...
Celebrian
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 17, 2006 01:35
It is possible that the very presence of the ringwraiths in the vicinity somehow roused the evil spirits occupying the barrows; but I think I remember reading somewhere that there were evil spirits in the world that were not really connected to Sauron, though I think they were probably somehow under the sway of Morgoth.

I believe it is also stated that the spirits of Men go somewhere to await final judgement and I don't believe they lingered in the world as ghosts. The most obvious hole in this idea is the existence of the dead summoned by Aragorn but they were under a specific curse and I think they were the only true ghosts in middle earth, if only because their unique status seemed crucial to the storyline.The ringwraiths existed "neither alive nor dead" and therefore support that theory because they are not ghost of dead kings but twisted undead.

I don't think the barrowwights were connected to the people who lived and died in that region. I remember reading that they had crept into the barrows a long time after all the people were gone. If the original occupants of the barrows (the bodies burried there) had been evil it seems unlikely that Merry's blade would have been able to do what it did.
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 21, 2006 12:02
Wow, this is interesting, even though most of whats being said goes right over the top of my head.
I've always wondered what Barrow - Wights were... Interesting thoughts, though.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 21, 2006 03:27
I don't think that it's actually over your head; you just haven't put much time into considering the origins of the wight

sAs I stated before, in the Unfinished Tales it is stated that the Witch-King sent the wights to the Barrows , but nothing is mentioned of their origins.
I started this thread to see what ideas others had about what the wights and where they came from.

I currently favour the idea that they were some sort of evil spirits, possibly of soldiers or just plain evil men that died while under Sauron's domination, and that when they either died , or succumbed to Sauron's ( or the Witch-kings) domination, they became a lesser type of wraith tied to what they were ordered to do. This idea is still in need of refinement though



[Edited on 23/8/2006 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Rulea
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 28, 2006 11:28
The barrow wights could have been the Witch King's spirits and when Angmar fell, they fled to the caves of the dead kings...

This is one of Tolkien's mysteries.
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danja_san
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 28, 2006 11:45
These, men, whoever they were before their corruption, could not have been dead; they must have been cursed, corrupted or inflicted with morgul sorcery while alive... as only Eru has the power to create life (except for the odd exception, it would seem, with his express permission sought...)

...Then again, why are the specters haunting Dagorlad?

I know about the wars; but what actually stops them finding Mandos, or the halls of their fathers?
Fattybolger
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 29, 2006 03:42
Appendix A says that in the days of King Argeleb II of Arnor, 'an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there. It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrowdowns were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathersof the Edain ... Those hills were therefore revered by the Dúnedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kinds were buried. Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearers was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.'

This indicates (1) that the barrow-wights were not the ghosts or re-animated bodies of human beings, and had nothing to do with any bodies buried in the mounds by the Edain or Dúnedian; (2) that they were in some way under the control of the WiKi, who governed Angmar - which is presumably why they obey his commands later on. What kind of evil spirits they are isn't clear, but in FoTR:

(1) the B-W is clearly corporeal in some way; it has eyes, an arm, a voice and a strong grip;

(2) it lives (like Smaug!) in a mound filled with treasure. The treasure is clearly grave-goods belonging to the Dúnedain, and there's nothing evil about it, since Merry and Pippin get their swords from this pile, and Tom B. chooses a brooch for Goldberry. The grave-goods clearly belong to more than one person. Merry seems to pick up a sort of memory of one of those people ('The men of Carn Dûm came on us...') Despite the bit about the last prince of Cardolan, the grave-goods seem to suggest collective burial, like a neolithic 'long barrow'.

(3) however, the B-W's power to inhabit the mound in some way derives from the treasure, since by making it free for the taking TB breaks the spell of the mound and then no Wight can ever come back to it.

(4) the B-W is not invulnerable: Frodo manages to chop off a hand, and TB destroys its power with an incantation, though at the end of the episode its severed hand is still wriggling, which perhaps suggests it could reconstitute its body and re-animate it.

(5) it wants to 'sacrifice' the hobbits in some ritual manner, having dressed them up as dead Dúnedain. This is left unexplained. I can't imagine that the Dúnedain themselves would sacrifice people to accompany a dead prince to the otherworld, though it's been done frequently in various real-life cultures.

(5) the B-W can be seen as a servant or ally of Sauron, since it talks about the Dark Lord lifting his hand. Presumably, therefore, it intends to sacrifice the hobbits to Sauron, whom it worships.

(6) but there are hints that its origin may go back to Morgoth rather than Sauron. Tom banishes it to 'where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended', and this presumably refers to the Outer Darkness where the Valar confined Morgoth at the end of the First Age. In that case, the 'evil spirits' are presumably another of the nasties that escaped from Thangorodrim, like the balrogs.

(7) There's even a hint that the hobbits themselves might have ended up in the Outer Darkness, since Tom summons them back to life by saying 'the Gate is open'. In that case, the B-W perhaps wanted to add the hobbits to an army which Morgoth is gathering against his return and the Last Battle.

That's all I can gather by way of hints in the text. Probably JRRT deliberately left the B-Ws rather mysterious, because it makes them more impressive.
Celebrian
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 30, 2006 05:41
Most of what you've said is what I thought but was too lazy to actually look it all up. The only point I can add now it that I believe there was some human sacrifices being made which contributed to the drowning of Numenor.
Fattybolger
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 30, 2006 11:24
Yes, apparently Sauron arranged such sacrifices by way of reviving the worship of Melkor. By that time Númenor must have been a truly horrible place to live in, and the sooner it was drowned, the better all round. Presumably the Dúnedain who escaped were nicer, except for the 'Black Númenoreans' who spent their time turning into Ringwraiths, etc.

Thinking about the B-Ws made me reconsider Tom Bombadil. He must strike most readers as a comic character and even a bit of a drag, but when you look closely there are all sorts of hints that there's something much more impressive below the surface. Being 'older than the old' he knows all about both Sauron and Morgoth, and seems to have been around before either of them - 'Tom knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from outside'. (Interestingly, this is the only pronouncement he ever makes which isn't in his jingling rhythm-speech.) By 'the Dark Lord' here I think Tom means Morgoth, not Sauron. No wonder Tom isn't particularly bothered by B-Ws; Sam's probably right to consider he'd also know how to deal with Black Riders. But he's opted out of the fiight, just as a lot of the Elves have. I imagine this is another of JRRT's quiet criticisms of pacifism. Anyway, I'd better shut up about TB or the topic will just get headed off.
Celebrian
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: August 31, 2006 08:47
I'd never made the connection between TB and JRRT's view of pacivists. It's an interesting consideration. It is further backed up by things that were said about him during the Council of Elrond, by Gandalf, I think, but am not sure. It was said that he had withdrawn (retreated?) into boundaries he had set for himself and would not leave them nor concern himself with the problems of the outside world.

But you're right. This is not the thread for discussing TB, although many things do seem to spiral back to him.
Fattybolger
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 01, 2006 03:43
That's so interesting that I'm going to start a new thread about it, unless there's one buried in the site already.

Reverting to barrow-wights, I think JRRT probably got the idea from Anglo-Saxon and early Scandinavian literature, which has examples of evil creatures dwelling in mounds. There's one in 'Beowulf', of course, though it's actually a dragon.

Alan Garner, a British children's author, has fierce spirits coming out of burial mounds in 'The Moon of Gomrath'.

Does anybody know of other legends of nasty things lurking in hows, barrows, burial mounds etc.?
Celebrian
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 01, 2006 10:24
I think there is an age-old tendency to fear evil spirits in or around burial places. Even in modern times there are people who won't live near a cemetary or walk through one at night. I don't think it is so much borrowing an idea as giving a nod to tradition to incorporate evil spirits in middle earth.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 01, 2006 02:48
The Magical powers of the wight are also interesting.
It managed to 'freeze-up' 3 of the hobbits with some sort of spell, and even managed to confuse the Hobbits so that they lost contact with each other when the entered its 'area of influence, and it may have even been able to influence the fog so that they became lost.

When Frodo hacked at the Barrow-wights arm, he cut the arm off, but in doing so splintered the sword, suggesting some magical power holding the wights parts together. Also all that he saw of the wight at that time was just the arm, making me wonder in the Barrow-wight was somewhat insubstantial and not completely solid , allowing it to vary the length of its arm, keeping the rest of its body out of harm.


What we seem to have is some odd spirit animating the remains of the dead or some magically altered evil being, living in the barrows of ancient kings and by the command of the Witch-king, capturing travellers through the use of spells and controlled fog; and then either putting them into some sort of suspended animation, or killing them, and adding their possessions to its hoard.

[Edited on 3/9/2006 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Rulea
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 02, 2006 05:52
That's cool, wrights are held together by magic instead of bones.
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Fattybolger
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 04, 2006 11:52
That's all fascinating, pv. Actually, re-reading the text I think you can take it even further. The barrow-downs are dangerous per se and seem to be impregnated with hostile magic, whether this stems from the b-ws themselves or not. The place where the hobbits have lunch is described as sinister from the start, though subtly. The standing stone they lean against 'casts no shadow': OK it's midday, but something that casts no shadow always seems uncanny. The stone is also 'cool, as if the sun had no power to warm it, which 'at the time ... seemed pleasant'. The hobbits fall asleep after lunch: the fact that they've been riding and need a rest is 'perhaps, enough to explain' why they dozed off. But the implication is that they were enticed and entrapped, although thats isn't actually said in so many words until they are 'trapped' in the fog.

The standing stones that Frodo passes between shortly after that clearly have power as well, because it's then that he becomes separated from the other hobbits and loses his pony. Presumably the b-w is now picking off the hobbits one by one. The whole passage is very eerie and enough to put one off picnics at Box Hill for life.

It's interesting about the sword splintering. There's a strong folk tradition that says supernatural (fairy?) creatures can't endure the touch of cold iron, and interestingly, the b-w's grip is said to be 'stronger and colder than iron': on other words, that ancient magic won't work on the b-w. Yet Frodo's blow does sever its hand. It clearly isn't flesh and blood, because the hand 'broke off'; but it presumably isn't just bones. The b-w seems to be material, but deeply unnatural. Is it 'alive', and if so, in what way? It reminds me in some ways of the very corporeal and malevolent ghosts in Icelandic sagas, but it's much more mysterious than they are.

As for the sword splintering, swords in LoTR seem to have a habit of doing this, given half a chance, even if they haven't been dissolved by contact with the wi-ki. Frodo's sword breaks as he defies the Black Riders, Narsil breaks beneath Elendil (is he that heavy?), Boromir's sword is broken in his last fight. Must be Taiwanese fakes, or something.
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 26, 2006 06:51
According to the Tolkien encyclopedia by David Day, Barrow Wights are Demon spirits fleeing from the sun left the witch-kingdom of Angmar. Their bodies had been destroyed and they searched for new bodies in which they could dwell. Before this the Barrow Downs where a respected and honored place. These demons became the Barrow-Wights, who animated the bone and jeweled armor to the ancient kings.
They were of a substance of darkness and could crush the will. They were form shifters and could animate any life form (I believe this means they could posses, not actually shift, but I could be wrong). They often came in the guise of a phantom with luminous eyes and horrible yet hypnotic voice. Their skeletal hand was cold as ice but as strong as an iron vise. Once under the Barrow Wights spell the victim had no will of its own. In the green half light of the Barrows the Wights would lay down their victim on a stone altar. They would clothe them in kingly raiment and bind them with gold chains, and drape them with a pale clothe (probably a robe of some sort). Then they would end their life with a sacrificial sword. They were powerful foes in the darkness but once exposed to sunlight they would be destroyed forever.

Hope this helps.
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 27, 2006 12:51
Actually, I would take anything written by David Day with a grain of salt - that guy tends to "fill in the blanks" quite a lot. :rolleyes: That seems to be the case with this entry, too; I don't remember Tolkien himself having written anything to that extent, but I'm not at my books at the moment so I can't check.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 27, 2006 01:04
I, long ago, also made the mistake of purchasing David Day's book, but I found that many of his descriptions have little or no basis in Tolkien's works. It's as though he takes a grain of truth and then embellishes it until he comes up with something worth adding to his descriptions.
I started this thread because of the lack of a detailed description for Barrow-wights in Tolkien's works and I was cusrious as to member opinions. I really have to question where Day finds all of the details listed in his entries. Unless you can find corroborating evidence in Tolien's works, don't put much weight on what you read in Day's books.
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 27, 2006 05:03
Oh :blush: thanks for the info, I'll be more carefull next time.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 27, 2006 08:42
Some ponderings.

As fattybolger has said, this really is a section full of mythology and spirit. Barrows are common through England, and dark creatures living within them are common themes through literature. Alan Garner, of course, being one of the people whose work lies closest to any original legend and myth.

So, the land of the BWs was not originally dark and foreboding. Only when spirits came from elsewhere did darkness begin ...
"A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and cold chains in the wind."

Interestingly, though, I get the feeling that the overall goodness of the land can still be felt. Walking past the barrows on their west side is better, the wights can be lulled by song.

But what were they?

I have mixed feelings about this. I think they must be either Maiar, some type of other spirit like Tom Bombadil, or some spirits corrupted / spirit-ified by Melkor or (presumably) Sauron. I don't like the idea of them being Maiar, though that's just gut instinct. I don't really much like the idea of them being nature spirits either. But ... their songs are filled with references to "higher" things, as well as an obvious reference to their service to the Dark Lord.
"Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone:
never more to wake on stony bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.
In the black wind the stars shall die,
and still on gold here let them lie,
till the Dark Lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land."

The wights are wights until the end of Arda? Or at least the Final Battle where they believe the Dark Lord will overcome the forces of the Valar.

Tom's banishing is equally wide-ranging:
"Get out you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!
Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing,
Out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains!
Come never here again! Leave your barrow empty!
Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended."

Is he talking about the Doors of Night? Banishing the wight into the Void? I *like* that. Says a lot about Tom as well.

One other thing from these quotes is the Wight's coldness and aversion to sunlight - characteristics reminiscent of vampires and lamia in mythology.

But what particularly interests me about the BWs is their fondness for treasure - and ritual. The hobbits were laid out in white clothing, with circlets on their heads, chains around their waists, and rings on their fingers. By their sides were swords, and at their feet were shields. Across their necks lay another sword.

This must be the way that the barrow's original inhabitants were laid out? Or were the BWs somehow setting the Hobbits out to be turned into BWs, for the BWs themselves "walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind."
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: September 30, 2006 09:35
Alan Garner does indeed draw on British tradition, but he's heavily influenced by Tolkien as well, so I wouldn't see him as a 'independent' source for knowledge about this sort of thing.

I'm not sure about the idea of the 'original goodness of the land'. It's rather that the B-Ws can be rendered less harmful by using the correct kind of counter-magic. 'West' in Tolkien's world always means 'good'.

The bit about the bones being stirred in the mounds is fascinating. It suggests that the b-ws may indeed have used the bodies interred in the mounds as 'clothing' for themselves. The idea of the re-animated body - the un-dead - is very widespread in folklore and is peculiarly terrifying. (Pirates of the C. draws on it, of course.) It seems that it was the re-arising of Sauron that enabled the b-ws to 'stir' - just as it enabled the Nazgul to reconstitute themselves.


Although before 'Sil' was published I believed that the b-w's incantation referred to Sauron, I'm now convinced it refers to Morgoth, and to his anticipated return.

Evidently, whatever the ultimate origin of the b-ws, they are wholly on the Dark Lord's side in the cosmic battle between him and the Valar.

I think Tom must have a way of sending the b-w to its master, Morgoth, who was chained in the Void at the end of the First Age. This does indeed speak volumes about the power of TB. The puzzling thing about Tom is not so much that he has such power - because he's constantly exhibiting it -as that he deliberately chooses to appear harmless and jolly, rather than majestic and awesome. Perhaps he's learned the ultimate lesson of the truly great: humility. Just as Jesus in the Incarnation set aside his divinity, though I wouldn't push that parallel too far!

Quote: One other thing from these quotes is the Wight's coldness and aversion to sunlight - characteristics reminiscent of vampires and lamia in mythology.
Unquote.


Yes indeed. JRRT is playing on these traditions as well as on the 'un-dead' idea. More subtly, perhaps there's a hint that the b-w is a creature of nightmare, and thus automatically vanishes when daylight comes. (One notices that it doesn't manifest itself until the (magic?) fog has effectively turned day into night.) Compare the Dark Island in Lewis's Voyage of the Dawn Treader: there was never really anything to be afraid of, but the adventurers' own imaginations drove them wild with terror. The b-w is not 'imaginary', of course, but a good deal of its terror derives from the legends that the hobbits have already heard about the barrowdowns.


Quote:
But what particularly interests me about the BWs is their fondness for treasure - and ritual. The hobbits were laid out in white clothing, with circlets on their heads, chains around their waists, and rings on their fingers. By their sides were swords, and at their feet were shields. Across their necks lay another sword.

This must be the way that the barrow's original inhabitants were laid out? Or were the BWs somehow setting the Hobbits out to be turned into BWs, for the BWs themselves "walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind."
Unquote.


I think both suggestions are correct. The b-w plainly has reconstructed the original burial. Merry's dream-utterance indicates that the people buried in the barrow died by violence at the hands of the men of Carn Dûm, who were subject to the Witch-king. Perhaps that made their barrow more susceptible to being haunted by the b-w. But I think the b-w is trying to enchant the hobbits so that they will 'lie on gold' in suspended animation until the Last Battle, when they will be compelled to fight on Morgoth's side. Maybe this is already the fate of the barrow's original bodies - horrid thought.

It all goes to show how extraordinarily rich JRRT's imagination was, and how wide his knowledge of folklore and ancient literature. That knowledge is what gives his invented world such depth and reality: none of his imitators has a remotely comparable 'authority'.

I gave away my copy of David Day's book years ago. Not only do I dislike the illustrations, but the text is actively misleading, as various people have already, quite rightly, said.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: October 01, 2006 05:59
Alan Garner does indeed draw on British tradition, but he's heavily influenced by Tolkien as well, so I wouldn't see him as a 'independent' source for knowledge about this sort of thing.

Influenced, of course, but still he works from legend outwards, rather than a story and taking it deeper to make a legend as Tolkien does. *rereads sentence* Does that make sense?

The bit about the bones being stirred in the mounds is fascinating. It suggests that the b-ws may indeed have used the bodies interred in the mounds as 'clothing' for themselves. The idea of the re-animated body - the un-dead - is very widespread in folklore and is peculiarly terrifying. (Pirates of the C. draws on it, of course.) It seems that it was the re-arising of Sauron that enabled the b-ws to 'stir' - just as it enabled the Nazgul to reconstitute themselves.

I think that's exactly what happened - the spirits came into the barrows and used the bodies lying there as 'clothing'. Good way to reanimate if you're a bodiless spirit! Let's just hope no bodies were left around for Saruman to tunnel into after being disembodied
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Post RE: Barrow-wights
on: October 01, 2006 11:36
That gives me an idea for a new thread!
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Post Re: Barrow-wights
on: June 16, 2012 02:47
*bump
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Post Re: Barrow-wights
on: June 17, 2012 03:44
I don't think Tom has the power to banish wights into the Void. The line referred to -
Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended.
is just a simile. He's saying they will be darker than the Void, read thus: darker than the darkness where gates...

I'm not sure why Tolkien is so down on barrows and standing stones. Barrows are not always haunted, sometimes being the home of faeries or elves, or the gateway to their realm. Standing stones were much revered in olden days, often having some healing property. There was one near here next to a spring and the road name is still Ashwell Holywell. Maybe he was just peturbed by their ubiquity and mystery. Perhaps he had a bad experience with a barrow. He mentions in a letter that much of the book must have come from his unconscious, so that he had to find explanations after the fact. I think the wights were a case of this as the Rohirrim had burial mounds that were respected, not feared.
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Post Re: Barrow-wights
on: June 18, 2012 05:46
Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended.



The comma at the end of the first line makes me think the darkness and the gates aren't part of the same thought. I interpret the shut gates as meaning that any sort of manifestation or potent presence is closed to the wights while the world lasts.
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