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Anarerulasto
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Post pronouncing "ny"
on: September 02, 2006 03:17
I am a little confused by Ardalambion's pronounciation of "ny". It lists it as a palatalized n, bu only talks about the beginning of words. I have heard people (not Quenya experts) pronounce "Quenya" as Cwen-ya. Should it be Cwe-na? Does this also apply to endings like -nye?
Malinornë
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: September 02, 2006 08:55
Isn't that how a palatalized n is pronunced? With a little (consonant) y following it?

You can listen to Tolkien's pronunciation of 'ny' (in 'fanyar', and it's not 'fanar') here:

http://audiopoetry.wordpress.com/2006/08/10/laurie-lantar-lassi-surinen/

(the page with the audio file looks a bit weird, but one can still listen to the clip by clicking the 'play' arrow)


[Edited on 3/9/2006 by Malinornë]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: September 03, 2006 03:37
In the palatalised sound /nʲ/, the and sound are "co-articulated". This means that they are both pronounced together in a single sound. The tip of the tongue should be put in the same place as when pronouncing a regular English /n/, but the back of the tongue should also be raised up as though you're pronouncing a /j/ (the sound).

The same sound should be used for no matter where it occurs in a word.

(I should say that there is a little disagreement as to whether Quyenya is a consonant cluster, a palatal consonant, or a palatalised consonant.)
jaredmoreau
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: September 22, 2006 07:54
we are the knights who say ...ny

watch monty python
TheIstarMithrandir
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: September 24, 2006 11:46
I have always thought of "ny" as a single sound (like how British RP speakers say "new", nju: rather than nu: ). Is that wrong?

[Edited on 25/9/2006 by TheIstarMithrandir]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: September 25, 2006 01:11
You're right; Quenya is very much like the first sound in RP .
Lex
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: July 18, 2007 09:32
In the palatalised sound /nʲ/, the and sound are "co-articulated.
The same sound should be used for no matter where it occurs in a word.
According to Helge k. Fauskanger, ny in the middle of a word is treated like a consonant cluster (n + y), meaning the "n" sound is followed by "y" (they are pronounced as separate sounds). Like in vanya "fair, beautiful".
In the beginning of words, ny has the sound of a palatalized n (the "n" and "y" sounds pronounced together), representing one single consonant. This sound is more or less like in British RP english "new" (palatalized) or in spanish "niño" (palatal, i guess... i don't know exactly the difference, can someone tell me? ). Like in nyarna "tale, account".

But Lambengolmo is right: there is some disagreement as to wether ny, ty, hw, gw, qu and such groups are indeed consonant clusters or single consonants, no matter which is their position in a word.
However, there is no doubt groups like rm, st, mn, ht, etc. are actually consonant clusters.
So, for now, just don't care about that

Be careful just about one thing: when it comes to determining where the stress is, those groups that can be considered single consonants they seem to count as two consonants, in any position.
This may be a reason that have lead to the theory that they are consonant clusters rather than single consonants.


Does this also apply to endings like -nye?
In endings such as -nyë, the ny is a consonant cluster, since endings do not occur in beginning position (i know it's obvious ). Ex: melinyel "i love you" (mel- [verb] + -i- [as a connecting vowel] + -nyë [subject pronominal ending "i"] + -l [object pronominal ending "you").

In the object pronoun nyë "me" (ex: Á tulë na nyë! "Come to me!" --> na = preposition "to, towards") it's a palatalized n.
I'm not certain, but perhaps this nyë could occur with the prefix ana- "to, towards" (ananyë --> ny = n + y), or with the allative ending -nna "to, towards" (nyenna --> ny = palatalized "n").
The allative nyenna should be the favoured way to represent "to me".
Someone can tell this better than me

But like i said before, there's no "truth keeper" theory regarding wether ny and such goups are single consonants or consonant clusters. We just don't know. Pronounce them the way it appeals more (or is easier) to you.

[Edited on 18/7/2007 by Lex]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: July 19, 2007 04:08
As far as I can determine, Spanish <ñ> is /ɲ/ (a palatal nasal), though as I've not had much experience with Spanish, I can't be sure.

The difference between a palatalised nasal and a palatal one is that with a palatalised nasal the tongue is touching the roof of the mouth in two places; the tip should be where you pronounce a regular /n/ and the body should be arched in the same way you say /j/ (which is written in English).

With a palatal nasal, the tongue is only touching the roof of the mouth in one place; the body of the tongue should be touching the hard-palate (and the tip should just be left resting behind your lower teeth).
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: July 19, 2007 04:32
Oh, and by the way, Quenya is not in doubt; it's /ʍ/ (The sound of English before it merged with ).
Lex
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Post RE: pronouncing "ny"
on: July 19, 2007 08:45
Oh, and by the way, Quenya is not in doubt; it's /ʍ/ (The sound of English before it merged with )
oh, sorry my bad

[Edited on 20/7/2007 by Lex]
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