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silmenuquerna
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Post Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 06, 2006 08:24
Ok here goes, first big translation, its the first stanza of the Road Goes Ever On. (English at bottom--if its wrong, excuse me, i had it memorized, it might have been slightly off.)
On with the Quenya:

I londë menë oio
or car ar nu alda
har notelië massë i anar là callë
har celumië i là hirnë i airë
or lossë hrívenen rendë
ar ter i alassië lóti narë
or car ar or ondo
ar nu oronti mí Rána

ok english i translated from
The road goes ever ever on
Over rock and under tree
By caves where never sun has shone
By streams that never find the sea
Over snow by winter sown
And through the merry flowers of June
Over rock and over stone
And under mountains in the moon

PLEASE leave any comments, suggestions, etc. I'm really starting to like quenya and would like some peer editing if im making any typical/stupid mistakes. But I am willing to argue word choice!

[Edited on 6/10/2006 by silmenuquerna]

Edited the thread title / Malinornë

[Edited on 14/10/2006 by Malinornë]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 06, 2006 09:49
Not bad for a first major translation — You've managed to translate some of the harder aspects of the poem quite well, but there are still a few mistakes here and there.

(BTW, The penultimate line should read "Over grass and over stone".)

Here's my comments:
Line 1: Londë has connections with the sea; A much better word for road would be tië. Dunno what "menë" is, but I would suggest you use tulya for "goes".
Line 2: "Rock" is best translated as ondo.
Line 3: I'll bet you meant to write "rotelië" rather than "notelië". In any case, the word you want is roteli. For "has shone" use the perfect tense; acálië.
Line 4: The plural of celumë is celumi. "Find" is in the simple present tense so you should use the aorist in Quenya; hirë.
Line 6: "Of June" is Narieva.

I also have a couple of minor word choice suggestions, but they can wait for another day.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 08, 2006 05:35
Ok thanks a bunch, I definitely agree with _tië_. I got _menë_ (aorist) from the attested _men-_ to go. The aorist was the form actually used, so I just hijacked it I chose _car_ over _ondo_ because of line 7 "Over rock and over stone", and I wanted a differentiation. So, since i used _car_ for rock, I thought i would be consistent and use it in line 2 as well. But since I had line 7 wrong, moot point. As for the rest, I agree completely, thanks for the feedback.

So, the edited version (i fixed the grass error
Tier menir oio
or ondo ar nu alda
har roteli massë i anar lá acálië
har celumi i là hirë i airë
or lossë hrívenen rendë
ar ter i alassië lóti Narieva
or salquë ar or ondo
ar nu oronti mí Rána


[Edited on 12/10/2006 by silmenuquerna]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 09, 2006 01:17
I see where you got menë from now. It's not in all the dictionaries since lelya is the preferred verb to express "to go".

I'd still suggest you use tulya instead since it's somewhat ideotic of English to say that a path "goes" somewhere; "To go" normally infers that a person or object moves from one place to another, but in this particular example the path itself isn't moving. It's ok for English to use the verb "to go" in this way, but is the same true in Quenya? The truth is, we don't know.

"To lead" doesn't imply the sense of movement that does "to go"; it only indicates that the person or object is referring to the destination rather than actually going there. This seems to fit the meaning in the poem better which leads me to think that tulya would be a more suitable translation.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 09, 2006 04:38
hehe I was just being difficult holding on to menë. I'll go edit to tulya. Thanks again for all the help.
thorsten
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 10, 2006 03:28
I'd still suggest you use tulya instead since it's somewhat ideotic of English to say that a path "goes" somewhere; "To go" normally infers that a person or object moves from one place to another, but in this particular example the path itself isn't moving. It's ok for English to use the verb "to go" in this way, but is the same true in Quenya? The truth is, we don't know.


It so happens that in this particular instance we do know, because men- is actually attested in the sentence imbi Menel Cemenyë mene Ráno tië 'between heaven and earth goes the path of the moon' in VT47, so in fact it is correct to say that a path goes somewhere in Quenya.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 10, 2006 08:05
Thanks for finding that Thorsten, I looked all over for that and finally found it on A rdalambion.
(I use it for all of my dictionary work!)
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 10, 2006 09:34
I actually read that sentence when I was looking men- up, so I don't know how I missed it. Thanks Thorsten.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 11, 2006 02:53
ha the linguist messed up Just playing. But thanks again for the help, both of you
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 13, 2006 10:46
Since I had so much fun with the first stanza, I've decided to translate the other three. I've only completed one of them so far, but I'll post that now for review while I work. Again, I will post both the english and the Quenya. I also found a few errors with my previous post and fixed them.

English:
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.

Quenya:
Tier menir oio
Nu lumbo ar nu elen
Ananta talí aránië
Pirë teldavë mardenna vahaia.
hendu yar urúva ar macil ecénië
ar norto rondossen
cenë teldarë lariennar laica
ar aldar ar ambor te andavë isintië.

A couple methods for the madness - teldavë = adv. form of telda - final. Also, isintië from sintë, isintë - known.

[Edited on 12/10/2006 by silmenuquerna]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 13, 2006 10:46
There's a definate improvement in this one.

A request; next time you post a translation could you post it interlinearly (one line of English, followed be one line of Quenya, followed by the next line of English etc.)? I know it's a small thing, but it helps us to compare the two texts more easily.

Anyways, here are my comments:
Line 3: The plural of tal would presumably be either tálu or táli. The next part of the sentence is a relative clause, so you need some translation of "that" in it. Aránië should be in the plural.
Line 5: Úruva is an adjective when what you need is a noun. Ecénië should be in the plural.
Line 7: There's a typo in lariennar (should be lairennar).
Line 8: There's actually a sneaky relative clause in this line that can be hard to see in English since it often leaves out the word "that"; if we put it back in, the line would read "And trees and hills that they long have known". In this particular case, we can just put the relative pronoun back into the Quenya and the problem is resolved. Isíntië should either be in the plural or have the "they" attached (it's up to you).

This is more a matter of interpretation than a mistake in your Quenya, but I feel that the words for bodyparts in this poem are referring to those of a number of people rather than just those of one. Therefore, I would have translated them using the plural rather than the dual. I wouldn't want to impose my interpretation of the poem onto you, so I'll let you decide for yourself which form is appropriate.

[Edited on 13/10/2006 by Lambengolmo]
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 14, 2006 06:07
Edited 2nd stanza:
Tier menir oio
Nu lumbo ar nu elen
Ananta tálu i aránier
Pirë teldavë mardenna vahaia.
hendu yar nárë ar macil ecénier
ar norto rondossen
cenir teldarë lairennar laicar
ar aldar ar ambor yar andavë isintientë.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 20, 2006 09:02
Ok here are 3rd and 4th stanzas, but they're going to be VERY rough. I had a nasty time translating these two, and I'll probably be revising them.

3rd:
The road goes ever ever on
I tië menë oio
down from the door where it began.
nún i andollo yallo yestaneryë
Now far ahead the road has gone,
Si háya i tië mennë,
and I must follow if I can,
ar horyan hilya ai polin,
pursuing it with weary feet,
roitala sa lumbë tálunen,
until it joins some larger way,
tenna ovontas lá alta tië,
where many paths and errands meet.
yassë limbë tier ar tarassi yomenir.
And whither then? I cannot say.
Ar yasse san? Umin polë quetë.

4th:
The road goes ever ever on
I tië menë oio
out from the door where it began.
et i andollo yallo yestaneryë
Now far ahead the road has gone,
Si háya i tië mennë,
let others follow it who can!
á lavë exi hilyatas i lerta!
Let them a journey new begin,
Áte lavë yesta virya lendë,
but I at last with weary feet
mal ni teldavë lumbë tálunen
will turn towards the lighted inn,
piruva i calina ampanollo,
my evening rest and sleep to meet.
sérenya ar húmenya ovantien.

Grumble.. they really didn't come out very nice and I extensively referred to the Parma Penyanë Quettaron (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ppq.htm), but otherwise, it was great fun, if anyone feels like it, hit me up with more stuff to translate!

[Edited on 26/10/2006 by silmenuquerna]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 21, 2006 05:31
Here's my comments for the third stanza:
Line 2: As far as I can see, the second i doesn't need to be there. Nóna is a little hard to fit into this sentance in a grammatical way, I'd personally swap it out for a passive construction using ontana.
Line 5: "It" is sa. Lumba is an adjective so it's plural is lumbë.
Line 6: Where did you get "ovonta-" from?

I'll get onto the other stanza in a day or two to give you a chance to consider these points first.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 22, 2006 04:01
Ok, changing i né nóna to yestaneryë (it began), fixing lumbar, I consistently mess up my plural adjectives, as you might have noticed, and I obtained ovanta- from the link at the bottom of my post above. Going to go edit stuff now.
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 24, 2006 12:12
Anyways, moving on...

Stanza four:
Line 4: You need to use the "extended" form whenever you want to put a pronoun on an infinitive.
Line 5: I don't understand this line at all. The best I can make of it is "Went them new to begin" but that doesn't make sense since among other things lelya- is an intransitive verb. Could you provide a word for word gloss?
Line 7: I'd add an allative ending in order to convey the "towards".
Line 8: In less poetic English, this line would read as "in order to meet [my evening rest and sleep]". Quenya translates "in order to" using a special construction that involves using the gerund form of the verb and then putting it in the dative case: ovantien.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 24, 2006 04:40
So, hilyaryë at line four. Line five was meant to be Á (imperative) + te (them) followed by yesta, but I kept the english word order. Changing this line to
Áte yesta virya lendë.
line seven, changed to allative... I had it written down but just forgot it. Line eight I will change to ovantien. Thanks for that form, I don't remember seeing anything about it.
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 25, 2006 06:08
I meant the extended form of the infinitive not of the pronoun. The extended form of the infinitive usually adds -ta to the end; hilyatas.

The word order that you had isn't really the problem. I had thought of that translation of line five, but it's equally nosensical. In the original sentance, the pronoun "they" is the subject of the verb "to begin" but your translation has it as the object. You could either put the "let" back in and have "they" become it's object ("let them begin a journey!"), or do away with the infinitive and have a regular sentence ("they begin a journey") or even do away with the "them" ("begin a journey!").

The "in order to" formation is touched upon in lesson 13.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 25, 2006 11:54
hmmm, touching on line five again, I used the council lesson 19 (excerpt following), which said that you glue the object of the sentence to the imperative article Á. I was looking for the object, because the sentence is imperative, telling the reader/listener to let others begin a new journey, which would make the subject an understood 'you'.

For the object, the object form of the independent pronoun is added to the imperative particle "á" (or, for negative requests, to "áva"), but can also be used as a separate word. If both a direct and an indirect pronoun are to be used, one of them must be a separate word, as only one pronoun at a time can be glued to á / áva.

Examples:
Áte hilya! ("Follow them!")
...


I might have just read this wrong, or I just don't see my error, but it seems right as far as I can tell.
I was meaning to say:
Áte yesta
Let them begin
virya lendë.
a new journey.

[Edited on 25/10/2006 by silmenuquerna]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 26, 2006 01:50
Your form is correct, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Áte yesta literally means "Begin them!" (as in the context of "You over there! Go begin them now!"; it doesn't really make sense). I don't know where you get the "let" from in your translation of Áte yesta because there is no component in there that means "let".

You are right that imperatives can only take an object. The problem is that the imperative in the english "let them begin a journey" is "let" while in your quenya translation you have the imperative as "begin". "Them" is both the object of "let" and the subject of "begin", while "a journey" is the object of "begin".

In Áte yesta virya lendë, it's obvious that -te is the object of á yesta. But what is virya lendë? It was the object of "begin" in the original, but your rearrangement means it can't be the direct object since that is already taken. It can't be then subject because infinitives can't have a subject. (It can't even be the indirect object because it isn't in dative.)

This explaination isn't as clear as I'd like, but do you see what I'm trying to say?

I suggested several ways to fix the problem in my post above, but the one that corresponds most closely to the English is to reintroduce the "let". In this case it might be something like; Áte lavë yesta virya lendë. If you want to follow the word order of the original then you can move yesta to the back without any problems.
silmenuquerna
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 26, 2006 07:43
*cough* Heh wow I am stupid, I completely missed the fact that i forgot to include lavë... Thanks for that, I thought I had included it from the beginning and argued my point as such. Sorry for all the confusion. (Going to go put it in now. *hangs head in shame*)
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Road Goes Ever On (My try at translation)
on: October 26, 2006 08:51
Don't fret, we've all made mistakes like that.
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