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Lorddreaman
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Post Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: January 06, 2007 07:04
This might be a dumb question so bear with me, In all my reading of Lord of the Rings it seems like Morgoth or Sauron would send out their armies of orcs that would get beaten time and time again and then they would rebuild their forces only for that army to get taken out so my question is, why did they not train their armies to fight better or breed superior orcs that could defeat the elves or men? Why not give them superior weapons or armour since Sauron knew a lot about smithing and metals?

[Edited on 7/7/2007 by cirdaneth]
Ilandir
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: January 06, 2007 11:33
Interesting question Lorddreaman.

I guess part of the answer would lie in the fact that Morgoth and Sauron focused mainly on the size of their army. Orcs were dipensable (not essential) and so they only mattered about increasing their numbers.

The Dark Lords thought that by outnumbering their enemy (be it Elves, Men or Dwarves) they would still be able to win (indeed, they closely achieved victory through the Five Great Wars in Beleriand).

Now regards armour, I think Sauron had not yet developed much knowledge by then, regards smithing and working on metals. As I mentioned earlier their (Morgoth and Sauron) main concern was to create as much orcs as possible and they gave no heed for the protection of their soldiers, since they heavily relied on numbers and not on weapons and fighting styles.

I hope that answers part of your question! Obviously, this is my opinion, maybe others may think differently.

Thanks,
Ilandir
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Lieutenant_Gothmog
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: January 07, 2007 11:30
He can't "give" them good weapons. Those weapons and armor are forged, by those very same Orcs.
Felnor
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: January 07, 2007 11:38
I think its a combination of the two posts above me. One reason is Sauron and Morgoth went in heavierly for numbers rather than ability. The other reason is, as mentioned before, the orcs would have to create the weapons themseleves. Lets bear in mind one thing Tolkien makes perfectly clear about Orcs: their not very smart. They use very little battle tactics and preffer to just charge the enemy and overwhemle them regardless of loss of life. They really wouldn't have the intelligence or disapline to create things like that. However Saruman does in fact do that with the Urk-Hai as they are much better trained and disaplined and follow orders better therefore giving them the ability to create something resembling a uniform.

[Edited on 7/1/2007 by Felnor]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: May 24, 2007 09:14
Actually in the Fall of Gondolin, the orc armies are very well organised and have superior tactics and weapons. In the fuller version in the Book of Lost Tales, there are steel-clad machines, issueing fire, some of which can fly. Sounds suspiciously like tanks and planes to me. Bear in mind too that Tolkien began writing this in the trenches on the Somme.
Dwarflord
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: May 26, 2007 04:33
A question came to my head:

Am I wrong, or were the orcs in Tolkien's books never beseiged?

It seems to me that they always attacked (at least most of the time). That fits well to the agressive aspect of evil in Middle Earth.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: May 26, 2007 06:37
The Last Alliance kept Barad-dûr under siege for seven years, and there, Sauron's forces were mainly orcs, I believe. I don't remember any other times of orcs being besieged, either.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: May 26, 2007 07:12
There was, of course, the Siege of Angband beginning with Dagor Aglareb c.FA60 which lasted almost 400 years and ended with Dagor Bragollach c.FA455. Morgoth's forces were decimated in the first battle, and he spent the Siege quietly increasing his strength. You can breed a lot of nasties in 400 years.
Dwarflord
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: May 26, 2007 10:38
I don't think this counts as a siege (except for the name), Cirdaneth. The Siege of Angband was not a time of warfare. Morgoth remainded in Angband, but he was not harassed by the Eldar. So I think this is not an example of Orcs defending their fortress i.e. using defence siege tactics.

[Edited on 27/5/2007 by Dwarflord]
Iavas87
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: November 29, 2009 09:23
Orcs are not always depicted as dumb and unable to create. The goblins of Goblin Town were mentioned as being particularly inventive in creating cruel weapons and implements of torture, and I'm sure those orcs under the direct tutelage of sinister minds such as Sauron and Saruman were even more skilled in such crafts.

However,there is often a trade off between numbers and training. Orcs bred fast and had large numbers. Thus, even if they did have some champions (the "orc chieftains" such as that who pinned Frodo in the Chamber of Mazarbul and Uglúk of the White Hand come to mind) that were well trained and well equipped, they were few and rare. The untrained rank and file would not have benefited enough from improved weapons or armour to merit the time and effort required to craft them, since a good portion would still be lost after only a single battle, if not prior to it through infighting.

Still, even a rusty, notched, and bent blade can be used cruelly in a strong arm by a savage mind, and I'm sure that the orc smiths managed to turn their skills at maximizing weapon cruelty for minimum crafting effort into an art form.
ElfofCave
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: December 13, 2009 10:10
This might be a dumb question so bear with me, In all my reading of Lord of the Rings it seems like Morgoth or Sauron would send out their armies of orcs that would get beaten time and time again and then they would rebuild their forces only for that army to get taken out so my question is, why did they not train their armies to fight better or breed superior orcs that could defeat the elves or men? Why not give them superior weapons or armour since Sauron knew a lot about smithing and metals?


It is understandable that people who read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings have this perception of Orcs because at first glance they do appear to be a primitive, crude and unintelligent race that thoughtlessly rush at the enemy in a battle, but this is not so.

In many ways our perception of an army of Orcs versus an army of Elves, Men or/and Dwarves can be compared to our perception of a “barbarian” army versus a Roman army; our perception of the “barbarians” is exemplified by the intro to the movie Gladiator, in which we see the highly organised, disciplined Roman forces with highly developed military technology easily defeat the disarrayed and primitive barbarians whose military technology consists of furs and crude axes. But this view of the barbarians does not resemble reality as archaeological evidence shows that the so-called barbarians not only had a well-developed weapons system, but were also organised and quite capable of developing and accomplish strategic manoeuvres (in fact, even a group people armed with primitive weapons will develop a fighting strategy based on the available technology) – the Romans would never have suffered defeat to the “barbarians” if this had been the case. The same can be said about Middle-earth: Morgoth would never have won any of the Battles of Beleriand if the Orcs (which constituted the main part of Morgoth’s armies) were just brainless creatures armed with crude weapons.

Battles cannot be won by the strength of arms alone. In battles strategy, and not the number of troops, is the most important aspect – the battle of Cannae is a great example of this: outnumbered by around 30.000 Romans Hannibal still emerged from the battle as the superior victor. If the Orcs simply threw themselves at the enemy it doesn’t matter if they outnumbered them 30 to 1, they would easily be outmanoeuvred and massacred (which they were in the early Battles of Beleriand, but not because they completely thoughtless – which I will return to).

In the First Age the Orcs was under the command of Morgoth. We are not told from were the Orcs received their armour and weapon, but we know that Morgoth had great knowledge concerning weapons, which he taught to the Noldor in Aman, and that Sauron was at first a Maia of Aüle, and from him learned many things about smithery, but it seems that neither of them did any actual smithing (except for their own personal use perhaps), but then who did? We know from The Hobbit that Orcs were capable of crafting weapons and such, so it is possible that some were taught by Morgoth or Sauron. Another possibility is that Morgoth received weapons and armour from Dwarven allies or slaves. What is certain is that after the Dagor Bragollach many Noldor and Sindar were taken to Angband as slaves and forced to “use their skills and their knowledge in the service of Morgoth” (The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin Of Beleriand). So it seems that (at least from this point forward) the Orcs had access to the same military technology as the Elves.

In my opinion, the reason the Orcs lost the first three Battles of Beleriand and the battle of Hithlum was because:
- in the first battle, they were outmanoeuvred by the Sindar and Nandor.
- in the second battle the Orcs, though in great number, underestimated the Noldor but also became deeply frightened by the light of Aman in the eyes of the Elves.
- in the third battle Morgoth’s purpose was to catch the Noldor unawares and to test their strength, so this wasn’t a “serious” attempt at conquest.
- in the last battle led by Orcs the host was not great in numbers and walked into an ambush led by Fingon.


So perhaps the greatest weakness of the Orcs was that they feared the Elves of Aman. This weakness caused Morgoth to change how he used Orcs in his battle strategy, because: “Morgoth percieved now that Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor; and he sought in his heart for new counsel.” (The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor). Form then on Morgoth compensated for the Orcs’ weakness by using large quantities of Orcs which are lead by Balrogs or Glaurung the Dragon, and at the same time backing them up with his more powerful creatures – a strategy that brought him victory at the Dagor Bragollach, the Nírnaeth Arnoediad, and the Battle of Tumhalad.

These victories can perhaps be ascribed to the presence of stronger, more intelligent creatures but the Orcs could be quite cunning in their own right, which The Battle of the Five Armies is a great example of: During the battle a group of Orcs climbed the mountain and attacked the forces of Elves, Men and Dwarves on the spurs from above giving the retreating Orcs fighting in the valley a chance to regrouped and rejoined the battle, and in the end it was only due to the help of the Great Eagles and Beorn (who slew the Orc leader) that the Orcs was eventually defeated.

In the Second Age the Orcs are from Mordor under the command of Sauron, and when it comes to military technology the situation is much the same as in the First Age: Orcs were taught smithing, slaves (perhaps some of the great smiths of Eregion was taken captive) were forced to use their skills, or Sauron received his weapons and armour from his allies – especially from Dwarves and the Black Númenóreans. This is of cause speculation on my part.

Then in the Third Age the Orcs are far less centralized, and there are many independent groups spread throughout Middle-earth (most notable in the Misty Mountains), and their military technology was not as advanced as that of their enemies. Of the military technology of the Orcs of Minas Morgul and Mordor in comparison with that of their enemies we are not told.


So the Orcs that was under the direct command of stronger, and more intelligent beings like Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch-King seemed to have been well-armed and well-trained. When it comes to breeding superior Orcs that tactic was tried out, most notably by Sauron and Saruman, but perhaps also by Morgoth. In the Lord of the Rings it is implied that there are different breeds of Orcs: soldier-Orcs, tracker-Orcs, Snaga Orcs, Uruk-hais and Half-Orcs.

The reason the Orcs seem to loose all the time despite, despite the greater number, can then mainly be described to three things:
1) if overcome by fear they became completely incapacitated.
2) their enemies had greater leaders when it comes to battle strategies – and they had perhaps more to fight for than the Orcs..?
3) their enemies received help from unexpected sources that turned the tide

Well, that is my opinion at least… hope it makes any sense
Spragh
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: December 14, 2009 01:11
I think that we should not forget one improtant fact in the wars of Middle-earth...Calvary...Rohirrim!At least in the thrird age.The big thing is that,when you have highly mobile forces as are riders.A powerful force,mountened,not easy to hit by a bow,and almoust unreachable by sword.And ofcourse,the enemies of riders do not know where are they heads for much of there time before the spear hits them.The panic that calvary create amoung the enemies is a vital factor.This is the case in the third age.I think that in the past ages it was of big importance as well.And i would say that i agree with the reply above me.The Orcs did not have one big aly with them,and those are-Grace,Purity and Light of the heart.The Orcs did not posses non of that.So in the crucial moments,Elves and the others use that to overcome.So,i would end my own reply with this-for me,the biggest weapon of elves,men and dwarves was their harts,and the wery light that was in it.
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: December 24, 2009 07:55
I think that an orc is no match against a man or an Elf in combat no matter how good his wargear is.More so i think that an individual orc is not as brave and stronghearted as a man or an elf or a dwarf. Therefore the logical conclusion to breed more orcs(or to improve them).Then is the problem of their numbers, the bigger the army is , the harder is to coordinate it on the battlefield. For that an army that big(let's say Sauron's army) cannot be efective on the battlefield without a precise chain of command, with many lower ranks(like seargents, platoon commanders and higher).I don't know if the orcs had such an organized army.
Sauron's also fielded elite units like uruks,trolls and evil men. They were expected to turn the tide of battle not the large mass of lesser orcs. They were used mainly to engage the enemy and to pinned them down and if possible to overwhelm them.
As for strategies and tactics, i think everyone agrees that Sauron( or Morgoth in the first age) made all the strategies .
And one more thing, i think that orcish chieftain are not mentaly capable to lead a large mass of warriors simply because they lack the respective capabilities.
Elthir
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Post Re: Orclife 2. - Weapons and Tactics
on: May 06, 2012 07:19
Also, I think tallness could be a factor.


In the First and Second Ages -- if we look at two late statements concerning how tall the Eldar and the Numenoreans were -- we are dealing with very tall warriors, at 6.5 to 7 feet, or taller for some. But how tall were the orcs?

Before The Lord of the Rings was written, and thus within the context of the Silmarillion as it stood at the time, Tolkien appears to have desired Orcs to have been of nearly human stature -- '... sometimes translated 'goblins' but they were of nearly human stature.' JRRT, 1930s wordlist, The Lost Road And Other Writings

Looking at The Lord of the Rings, I would say this compares to the large Uruks however, since the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria, who must have been an Uruk, was still almost 'man-high', and the half-orcs, or at least some, were 'man-high'. In other words even this huge Uruk was yet of nearly human stature.

This is characterizing an older citation as if (!) it was written within the same conception as much later descriptions, which I like to be wary about, but if we accept Orcs of nearly human stature in the First Age, which makes sense to me in any event (we might mix in some large Maiar-orcs), one might assume that orcs diminished in size at some point after the fall of Morgoth.

But still we have the Second Age: the Exiled Noldor would be tall, and do we imagine a seven foot (or more, according to one source) Elendil fighting orcs as small as 3.5 feet? or if a large one, say 5 feet 10 inches or so? Possibe. Although maybe, if people agree that this seems a bit problematic anyway, the solution could be that the Last Alliance was the real turning point here.

Maybe the nearly man-high great orcs, along with many smaller ones, were almost wiped out at this time, and for many years in the Third Age, some orcs generally dwindled in size, or at least, did not breed in such a way as to produce many large fellows -- thus making the Uruks, especially the almost man-high ones of the Third Age, notable in size by comparison.

At some point in the Third Age, perhaps we have (and admittedly using convenient increments here): 3.5 feet to 4.5 feet for *snaga-hai, and 4.5 to 5.5 feet (and above) for uruks -- that is, say a 5 foot 8 -- 10 inch Uruk being exceptionally huge for an orc. And then we have the 'goblin-men' at an average of 5 feet 11 to 6 feet...

... not that JRRT wrote that! but I'm guessing based on certain descriptions in the tale. Anyway, I think the Maiar-orcs of the First Age could be larger, stronger, 'immortal' and maybe even immune to disease, but JRRT doesn't seem to have imagined there were that many of these.
cirdaneth
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on: June 01, 2014 12:33
Here's something worth chewing over again.
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