Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Languages » Quenya Discussion » I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
Author Topic:
pitya
Council Member
Posts: 591
Send Message
Avatar
Post I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 14, 2007 09:08
aiya! i just recently picked up Quenya again after a year-and-a-half drop, and i was going through my papers and found a poem i wrote earlier. i'd be much obliged if anyone could provide me with a critique as far as grammar/word choice etc. goes, and the structure of the poem. like i said, i've forgotten a lot and am unsure if i was on the right track.

the poem concerns Turin Turambar and his fate. it's meant as a sort of funereal epitaph.

Quenya:

I táno carnë i Morna Macil
Macë I fuyainar orcor,
Mal i anga macil ristëa eldar sí.
Ai! Merin Turambar cennë
Sina ringa ar carnë lomë
Annanë ana i aurë.
Namarië, hehtaina mahtar.

Translation:
The craftsman fashioned the Black Sword
To slay the abhorred orcs,
But the iron sword hews elves now.
O! I wish the Master of Doom saw
This cold and crimson night
He gave unto the day.
Farewell, forsaken conqueror.


[Edited on 5/11/2007 by Malinornë]
Tyrhael
Council Member
Posts: 339
Send Message
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 15, 2007 07:43
A few notes:

Line1: I'm not sure whether it would be _cárë_ or _carnë_ for the preterite.

Line2: I personally would use _yelwa_ (pl. _*yelwë) from DYEL than create a past participle. It is also possible that a past participle could be formed by taking off the suffix -ya on _feuya_ and directly adding it to the root, as on _yerya_ but _yerna_, producing _*feuna_ pl. _*feunë_. Of course, the former may be related to _yerya_ being transitive, so ...

_Orcor_ is correct, though there is also _Orqui_.

Line5: Our sole attestation of _sina_ (as far as I know) is behind the noun it describes, though this doesn't prove or disprove that it can only be used in that position.

_lomë_ should be _lómë_

Line6: The verb is _anta_, and I would expect its past tense to be _ánë_. I'm not sure whether the suffix -s "he, she, it" or the full -ryë should be added here, or if the verb alone can stand as a 3rd.sg. form.

Line7: It's _namárië_.
pitya
Council Member
Posts: 591
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 15, 2007 08:54
thanks for the help!

so for line 5, would the syntax be more something like,

Ringa ar carnë lómë sina

if i'm running with Tolkien's original ideas for syntax?
Malinornë
FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & Eldameldë
Posts: 1205
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 15, 2007 09:05
Yes, either that or 'Lómë sina ringa ar carnë'... a matter of taste, I think. But, in either case, sina should be after lómë, like you have it now.
pitya
Council Member
Posts: 591
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 16, 2007 01:29
i think i like the sound of Lómë coming first in the line even better--i forgot adjective placement was rather loose in Quenya poetry.

the past tense of anta- is confusing me a bit, though. since it is an a-stem, i thought you added -në to create the simple past...

which brings me to another question about line 6: would it be more correct to say, i aurin, for 'to the day'? i confess i haven't quite yet mastered the prepositional endings.
thorsten
Council Member
Posts: 271
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 16, 2007 09:59
the past tense of anta- is confusing me a bit, though. since it is an a-stem, i thought you added -në to create the simple past...


While this behaviour of so-called A-stems is commonly represented this way, a look into Tolkien's writings will show you that the truth is a bit more complicated.

For example, out of 13 past tenses for derived verbs (a-stems) found in the Etymologies, only 5 are formed by an ending -ne - the rest is formed by other means such as vowel lengthening or nasal infixion (see The Q(u)enya Past Tense for a list of pretty much all attested Q(u)enya past tenses in Tolkien's writings).

There is no evidence for a fundamental restructuring of the past tense going from early to late writings. Thus in particular, e.g.

anta- 'to give' pa.t. áne (PE12:31)

makes it rather likely that the past tense of anta- is not ?antane even in the later material.

Well - nobody said Tolkien's languages have to be simple, right?
Tyrhael
Council Member
Posts: 339
Send Message
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 17, 2007 03:31
Further proof is given when we find Sindarin _ónen_ (presumably from áne-n) rather than _*annannen_ in Gilraen's linnod.
pitya
Council Member
Posts: 591
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: May 21, 2007 05:06
hm. -takes information and stores it for later-. i'm glad i came across that information now instead of later. many thanks to both of you.
Lex
Council Member
Posts: 131
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: July 18, 2007 01:05
anta- 'to give' pa.t. áne (PE12:31)

makes it rather likely that the past tense of anta- is not ?antane even in the later material.

In Helge Fauskanger's course it is said that the Etimologies gives two past tense forms for onta-: the "irreugular" ónë and the "regular" ontanë.
So, could the past tense of anta- be *antanë as well?
And could serta- (pa.t. sérë) have *sertanë too?


By the way, by which means sintë, "irregular" pa.t. of ista-, is formed?

[Edited on 18/7/2007 by Lex]
Lambengolmo
Council Member
Posts: 239
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: July 21, 2007 06:55
If I remember correctly, Tolkien speculated somewhere that sintë is a 'regular' past tense of a hypothetical derived verb sita- which apparently comes from a reversed root form parallel to the more normal IS-, namely SI-. :dizzy:

Regarding antanë and sertanë, it's possible, but since neither of these forms are attested it would be better to avoid speculation and just use the canonical forms.
Lex
Council Member
Posts: 131
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: July 22, 2007 10:03
Hi, thanks!

I understood!
thorsten
Council Member
Posts: 271
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: I Morna Macil / past tense of a-stem verbs
on: July 23, 2007 07:23
Regarding antanë and sertanë, it's possible, but since neither of these forms are attested


The last VT has antanen 'I gave' - surprised as I am about it, attested it is now. So I have to change my statement made before the publication of VT49.

[Edited on 23/7/2007 by thorsten]
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email