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cirdaneth
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Post Dior Aranel
on: July 01, 2007 09:04
I'm re-introducing this subject, having just deleted an old discussion. It's time to let a new bunch of people loose on the subject, which is knottier than at first appears, so ...

Was Dior an Elf or a Man ... or a half-elf?

Was he mortal or immortal?

Discuss ...

Melianmaia
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: July 02, 2007 01:09
Is this a GCSE question? Ummm...
Dior was half mortal, one quarter elf one quarter Maia. The choice or mortality or immortality was granted to the twins Elros and Elrond by the Valar. As far as we know the choice wasn't granted to any other "mixtures". One can only assume and they were not all elf that they must have been mortal. Having said that I have just reread the end of the chapter the ruin of Doriath and I quote: "Dior returned no answer to the sons of Feanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the thousand caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf".
Did Tolkien intend to call Dior an Elf? or was it just convenient to call him an Elf rather than a half man quarte elf quater Maia?
If only we could ask him?
Michaela
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: July 02, 2007 03:54
Okay, that is confusing. I'd forgotten about the Maia in the mix...so if half-Elves are given the choice, then...hmm.

I don't think Dior would have been given the choice, nor do I think he would be immortal -- I just think he would have had a much longer lifespan than normal humans, because he, well, wasn't.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: July 02, 2007 10:49
Well spotted, Melian. The quote from the Ruin of Doriath is the one that jumps first to mind. Perhaps it could be said that the kinslaying was not of Dior himself, but of other defenders of Menegroth, but that doesn’t explain why Dior is described as “Eluchil” … Thingol’s heir, Surely elves would have insisted on another elf as king. His other title, the one I’ve used for the thread is “Aranel” which means Royal Elf … ahah!! The plot thickens.

I agree that Dior would not have been given the choice of being Elf or Man … (which is actually slightly different from being mortal or immortal, just to confuse you further ) Choice didn’t come into it until it was granted to the descendants of Elwing and Earendel.

Before the granting of choice, there were changes of soul-destiny, but they were gifts rather than grants of plea. I think Tolkien needed Dior to be an Elf for some reason. There’s a letter of his somewhere that explains some of this. I’ll look it up tonight and try to write something tomorrow.

Indeed, Michaela, it would be interesting to know what Dior’s life-span would have been. Sadly he was only around 36 when he was slain, which is pretty young, even for a mortal, so we’ll never know.

[Edited on 2/7/2007 by cirdaneth]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: July 02, 2007 11:53
In some writings in the HoME books (sorry, can't give a more accurate reference because I'm not at my books at the moment), Tolkien names Dior as the first of the Peredhil (Halfelven). His life - he was already married and had a family at an age when elves would still be children - also hints that, he was basically mortal. But, I believe that, if he had still been alive when Eärendil and Elwing and their sons were given the choice, he would have got to choose as well.
Makil
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: July 16, 2007 03:53
I don't know how much it matters, but Dior Eluchil's father and mother, were sent back from Mandos before he was born , as mortals.
Luthien had given up all claim to immortality and Elfdom in order to come back with Beren . So I think he was a man.
No matter , he was still Thingol's grandson and as far as I know his only heir.
Personaly I think considering the feats of bravery performed by Beren and Luthien, it would have been hard to refuse their son anything. Unless he was a complete dufuss , and he wasn't and he married an elf girl. Not happily ever after.
Lomelindi_of_Moonlight
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: September 25, 2007 05:29
I agree that he was mortal, as his parents were, but maybe something like that of the men of Numenor. A decendent of immortals, and having all their qualities/virtues/characteristics, but the immortality part is just dormant. He got all their genes, (as it says in the Sil. that he was the most fair of Maiar, Elves, and Men when he put on the Silmaril) and still had their blood in his veins, but was immune to immortality....?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Dior Aranel
on: September 29, 2007 09:12
I'm just dropping some stuff in here for people to consider:

With Dior come the first series of complications. Was he a man or an elf? Mortal or immortal? Genetically, he was half-man, a quarter elf and a quarter Maiar. So simply from this, one could suggest that he should be mortal. But he still had elven blood. Is there a percentage of elven blood that is needed to make someone an elf? Or is the matter less scientific than that?

So what did Tolkien say about Dior?

"he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm." ("The Silmarillion", Of the Ruin of Doriath)

He also seems to have vacillated about Dior's status through different drafts of The Silmarillion.

"Dior son of Beren and Tinúviel appears in the Tale of the Nauglafring, but there Beren is an Elf, and Dior is not Half-elven." (BoLT 2, The Fall of Gondolin)

In early drafts of The Silmarillion, Dior is also known as half-elven, for example:

"Dior Halfelven weds Lindis of Ossiriand" (The War of the Jewels, The Wanderings of Húrin)

"Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: "I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchil."" (The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Problem of Ros)

Pro-mortality

- Lúthien was mortal when she lived in Tol Galen. So was Beren. Therefore, their son should be mortal
- Dior has 50% mortal blood, only 25% elven blood.
- Thingol's Heir – would a 39 year old elf be old enough to reign? Being the son of Lúthien, scion of Thingol and Melian the Maia, the Elves of Doriath would -for the most part- have no problem accepting his leadership.
- "It is to be observed that according to the judgment of Manwë Dior, Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal respective of the choice of his mother." (The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion)

Pro-immortality

- About the fall of Doriath "and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf" ("The Silmarillion", Of the Ruin of Doriath) But I think this is generic – not necessarily referring to Dior.
- Thingol's Heir – would a mortal really reign in Doriath?
- Marriage to Nimloth. Why marry an elf when a mortal knows he is condemning both of them to sorrow? (but because he was half-elven, what would that do to his longevity?)
- Not mentioned in the 3 elf/mortal marriages.

A big part of the problem with Dior is that the judgement of Manwë concerning half-elven did not occur until after Dior's death. This judgement was stated to apply specifically to Eärendil and his sons. However, when Christopher Tolkien adapted the paragraph in question for the published Silmarillion, he chose to omit the line that "all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them". I get the feeling that while Tolkien wanted Dior to be seen as an elf, actually he knew he had to be mortal.

And why does it matter? It matters principally not because of Dior himself, but what inheritance he handed down to his daughter Elwing, who then married another half-elven, and upon whom the Valar laid the Choice.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Dior Aranel
on: February 16, 2013 11:30
*bump
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