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frodofan14
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Post gandalf less than helpful?
on: November 11, 2007 03:43
im sorry if somthing like this has already been posted.

does anyone else think gandalf could have helped a bit more???? i mean compared to harry potter wizards, gandalf and saruman dont really do that much 'wizardly' stuff. anyone else agree?
RodwenofRohan
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: November 11, 2007 03:55
I don't agree, personally. Gandalf and co. were sent by the Valar to Guide the peopes of ME, not to do everything for them. They did alot behind the scenes, too. Gandalf and Aragorn found and interrigated Gollum, thus dicovering he had been with Sauron. Before he turned, Saruman was the best source of information on anything regarding Sauron.
See what I mean? Of course, that's just my opinion. What do others think?
frodofan14
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: November 11, 2007 03:57
well im not saying he was useless i just think compared to harry potter type wizards he is not very helpful.
bowman
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: November 11, 2007 09:09
you can if you want, but im not going to compare the harry potter wizards to the lord of the rings wizards. different story, different wizards.
BelleBayard
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: November 12, 2007 06:13
The Istari were not to meddle directly in the affairs of Middle-earth, only assist when they could and advise. Unlike the very human wizards of Harry Potter, the Istari were in fact Maiar, sort of angel-like beings who took the aspect of old Men (perhaps a trust issue and perhaps one of blending in). Although they had "powers" they chose not to show them for the most part so as to not "blow their cover" to those they lived among.

Remember Melian, the queen of Doriath and Elrond's great-great-great grandmother? She was a Maiar who fell in love with an Elf and took on that aspect. For a very long time she protected Doriath and its environs. The wizards of Tolkien are very different in many ways from the wizards of Rowling. Magic is inherent and very rarely flashy in Middle-earth. More of an attunement to the world around them than an external thing.

Still, if you'll remember from the scene in the movie when Grima was horrified that Hama hadn't had Gandalf's staff removed, even Tolkien's wizards held powerful articles that aided their magic.
awelyn418
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: November 13, 2007 03:57
Well put Belle and you took the words out of my mouth.lol you sure know your Tolkien.
silivra
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 13, 2008 09:29
Hey, I think Gandalf should not have done anything else than he did. He is a good counsellor and this is what counts, not magic stuff. What should he have done with magic? He could not have helped Frodo on his quest with magic, but only with advise.
Nimiel
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 14, 2008 05:50
i think that gandalf being "the white" did too much. as you were saying the istari were sent to middle-earth to help the different folks more in a counselling than in an interfering way. but after "dying" gandalf has been a lot more intervening than he was supposed to be

saruman took that wrong way too. not being satisfied giving advices but wanting to enforce people doing his will. and we know how that ended.....
Mirandilwen
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 14, 2008 06:26
I agree with Belle- the Istari were sent to *guide* the people of Middle Earth; in fact, I think Manwe and Varda even forbade them to "match Sauron's power with power." Instead of repeating the Valar's mistake of directly interfering with the Elves, by bringing them to Valinor, etc. they were merely to guide Men in their fight- helping them to achieve their own destiny (since the Valar didn't know everything Eru had in store for them).

So in answer to frodofan's original question- yes, Gandalf could have done more, but could also have had disastrous results...as even he was afraid of being tempted by the ring. However, Saruman overstepped the limits by setting up a rival power to Sauron.

I've never read Harry Potter, so I can't compare the two types of wizards...but I think Tolkien used that word more by default because there was no other word with a meaning similar to what he wanted to convey; rather than because he actually wanted to use the traditional, literal meaning of the word (like Druids or the more occult kind of wizard, if you get what I'm saying...)
ElfmaidenofLorien
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 14, 2008 07:13
I'm totally with Belle on this as well.
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BelleBayard
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 14, 2008 08:57
Heh... Thanks. I'm no expert, just love reading about Middle-earth. As for Gandalf the White interferring... He really didn't do anything directly. He could have coerced Theoden instead of just trying to convince him to fight rather than retreat to Helm's Deep. Instead, he went to see what he could do to prevent complete disaster (like getting Eomer and his men to help at the battle). He was more proactive in his "white" phase than his "gray" phase, but only because it became necessary, given the dire circumstances. He never actually took control away from the leaders (at least in the books).

[Edited on 2/14/2008 by BelleBayard]
FollowerOfGandalf25
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 14, 2008 09:13
I think gandalf is a true leader of the pack if you want to call it that. Frodofan, do u still want to be in my story?
LOTR_obsessed_loony
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 19, 2008 11:00
He'd be an awful lot more helpful if he just spoke plain English and stopped making every single thing he said into a riddle, IMHO (that stands for In My Humble Opinion for those who don't know).
"...Though thereafter we may walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night." – Boromir, FotR, The Ring Goes South Image Image Image Image Image
TheStriderRider
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Post RE: gandalf less than helpful?
on: February 19, 2008 02:50
Well, wasn't it sort of their own job to figure everything out? I mean, Gandalf was required for certain things, like information. (Mind you, in the book Gandalf said his main desire and love of learning was of the Little People (aka the Hobbits) as said in "Fellowship of the Ring" so i'm sure he did the best to his ability...though he knew a lot more, obviously). Frodo and Sam and the other little hobbits, not to mention the other good guys sort of did a lot of work themselves. It was almost a point, if you will, that they didn't just magic their way out of their problems.

Either way, if that doesn't make sense (which it doesn't) Frodo does pretty well with the whole ring thing, I mean, he did his job. Gandalf helped, definately, but Frodo and Sam were definately strong enough to do it without ALL of the wizard's help anyway.

Another point is that, while I LOVE Harry Potter, they are not the same story. In Harry Potter, there's magic everywhere and doing everything for them. Though this world of Middle Earth is mystical, the magic is more than anything a very rarely used power. I'm sure it's draining for a wizard to use such skill and there's so much more to work off of. After all, we've had epic battles and situation in our own world without magic staffs and wands and we're still alright (in my opinion)

Anyway, done rambling. (And repeating what everyone else said ;D)
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