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Iavas87
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Post The light in their eyes...
on: March 21, 2008 01:04
I'm hoping to get some opinions on the following:

By definition, Calaquendi are those elves who have seen the light of the Two Trees. What I'd like to know is, what about the elves that were born after the Age of Trees but to Calaquendi parents? Are they considered Moriquendi because there have not seen the Light, or are they Calaquendi because they are born to light elf parents? The former case means that even those elves born in Valinor after the death of the Two Trees would essentially be Moriquendi, as they would not have seen the Light directly. The latter case means that the Light has affected the elves on a genetic level. There is one other option - that the essense of being Calaquendi depends on the wisdom gained in Valinor and passed on to one's descendants. That, however, would mean that the same wisdom that bestows light-hood can be passed on to others, even Moriquendi, men, or dwarves. Thus, I find this last path the least likely.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: March 21, 2008 10:02
OOOOh! This is a good one Iavas! I haven't a clue myself, but I'm dying to see what Atalante and our other elf-experts have to say.
atalante_star
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: March 22, 2008 10:35
OK *deep breath*

"these were the three kindreds of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Trees are called the Calaquendi, Elves of the Light"


- Elves of the Light. So where did the light come from? Can we equate Light with the Trees?

Yes. The Trees were the light of Aman. The Moriquendi (Umanyar and Avari) are described as:

[the elves that] "never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon"

The Light of Aman started with the Trees, reflecting and lighting the land and its inhabitants.


- But did the Light live on in the descendants of the Trees?

Apparently that light wasn't good enough, as shown in the Moriquendi quote above.


- So ... what does that mean for the elves who came about after the Two Trees?

Well, formally, they aren't Calaquendi. The Calaquendi saw the Trees.

And here we again encounter my favourite little Tolkien thing. Paradoxes, but paradoxes that make sense. For example, a man who is an elf. A mortal who is immortal. A half-elf who isn't. These things happen, because the *name* can be disassociated from the *state*.

I think the name Calaquendi applies only the elves who were around in the early days. The conditions for the giving of the name did not exist later and thus the name did not apply. The name was not a racial thing, it described a position in time. For example, when I was studying at university, I was a student, as compared to the lecturer guys. Now I'm neither. The conditions don't apply now.

And Thingol seems to show this applied to this situation:

"for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering, and king though he was of Umanyar, he was not accounted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light, mighty upon Middle-earth"

And in Melian:
"did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm"


(quotes from The Sil)

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by atalante_star]
Iavas87
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: March 22, 2008 01:00
A thought-provoking post, atalante_star. I can accept that the Calaquendi / Moriquendi were labels that were abandoned at some time before the Second Age, but the dichotomy of the elven race seemed to have persisted well into the Third, possibly even the Fourth, Age. Take, for example, Galadriel and Thranduil. They were both the rulers of woodland kingdoms of primarily Silvan elves, but the former was Noldor/Vanyar elf that saw the light of the Two Trees directly while the latter was a Sindarin elf that would be lucky to have met Melian. Galadriel's wisdom, foresight, and internal power was noticeably greater than Thranduil's. While part of that might have been induced by her possession of Nenya, that could not have been the only reason. Even her grandchildren, such as Arwen, were arguably more endowed with those qualities than much older Sylvan elves. Why? It is worth considering.

[Edited on 23/3/2008 by Iavas87]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: March 24, 2008 05:51
I would say that the greater wisdom, foresight, and internal power of Galadriel compared to Thranduil was because in Valinor, she had interacted and been taught by the Valar and Maiar, rather than just because she had seen the light of the Trees. That wisdom and knowledge then passed on to her descendants rather as a cultural inheritance than in the genes.
atalante_star
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: March 24, 2008 09:45
A thought-provoking post, atalante_star. I can accept that the Calaquendi / Moriquendi were labels that were abandoned at some time before the Second Age, but the dichotomy of the elven race seemed to have persisted well into the Third, possibly even the Fourth, Age.


Oh definitely, but I think the Calaquendi / Moriquendi dichotomy - practical maybe at the time of the elves in Valinor - changes somewhat. It has to really, because by the Third Age, nearly every elf around was Moriquendi in name or breeding. However, as you say, there is a big difference between elves such as Galadriel and Thranduil, but can we put it down to a simple Calaquendi / Moriquendi split? I don't think so, for several reasons:

- the Nandor (of which the Sylvan elves were a subset) were included in the Moriquendi as members of the Úmanyar. I really think there's a big difference in attitude and mentality between the Úmanyar and the Avari, classing them together as Moriquendi seems so artificial and Noldor-centric (but hey, there's nothing wrong with being Noldor-centric *grin*)

- Galadriel saw the light of Aman, yes. But she was partially of Noldor blood and the Noldor were known as being wise. How much of her ability came from her Noldor blood vs her seeing the light of Aman? And how much came from her Vanyarin lineage - the light of Aman vs her Noldor wisdom vs being part of the Vanyar - the Fair Elves, beloved of Manwë and Varda?

What I'm trying to say in a circuituous fashion is ... I think the main division in the elves existed between the Amanyar and the Úmanyar. That is, the elves who got to Aman and the elves that didn't.
Iavas87
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: March 24, 2008 12:07
Yes, it does seem that there is more of a three-way split, with the Amanyar being to the Úmanyar as the Úmanyar are to the Avari. The question, though, is whether the difference is due to the groups' initial characters (the wiser ones went West), the relationship with the Valar (wisdom tought directly by the gods), the proximity to the Light (the blessed realm promoted intellectual growth), or some mix of the above. While the answer seems likely to be a mix of the three, that still leaves the question of why the post-Tree descendants of the wiser ones inherited that wisdom while the descendants of the simpler ones, even those that lived under the guidance of the wiser ones, remained relatively simple. And it's not just wisdom that changed. Take, for example, the Sindar Thranduil's ability to tolerate stronger wine than his Silvan subjects. Also, while I don't have the Silmarillion handy at the moment, I remember at least a few instances when the newly returned Noldor were said to be more hardy than the Sindar of Beleriand because they had only recently seen the Light of the Trees, suggesting that the effects of either living in Aman or seeing the Light faded after spending time away from them. On the other hand, Galadriel was said to be at the apex of her wisdom by the end of the Third Age, so perhaps it was only the physical enhancements that decreased over time.

I really don't know where I'm going with all this, but it seems like an interesting topic.
Elthir
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: February 10, 2010 10:05
Considering that the thread title is 'The light in their eyes', we know from Quendi And Eldar that:

In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.


And there's also an interesting footnote in The Shibboleth of Feanor, author's note 42:

'... The first was especially applied to the bright lights of the eyes, which were a mark of all the High Eldar who had ever dwelt in Valinor, and at times in later ages reappeared in their descendants among mortal men, whether from Itaril or Lúthien.'


Just something to add for anyone interested
Iavas87
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Post RE: The light in their eyes...
on: February 11, 2010 09:18
Ah, I have not seen that Shibboleth quote before, and it does answer one of my questions more definitively - that the quality of being a Calaquendë could be passed on to one's descendants, though it was no sure thing. It also explains why Aragorn was so often described as having a light in his eyes throughout The Lord of the Rings, especially 'The Return of the King'.

In the two years since I first started this thread, I've come to a greater understanding of Tolkien's works, or so I would like to believe, but I still have much to learn, as I have yet to dive completely into HoME 3 - 12. Thinking about it now, I would say that the Light of the Trees empowered the fëar of the Elves that were touched by it, and those in turn strengthened both their hröar, at least for a time, and increased their willpower, thus driving them to greater action and wisdom. Tolkien seemed to use the imagery of a burning spirit to represent a character's will, as evidenced by the descriptions and the very name of Fëanor. It would make sense for eyes, being traditionally known as windows to the soul, to reflect the light of the spirit.

[Edited on 11/2/2010 by Iavas87]
cirdaneth
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Post Re: The light in their eyes...
on: February 10, 2013 09:41
*bump
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