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cirdaneth
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Post The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: December 05, 2008 12:20
I've opened this thread for discussion of the history, powers and significance of the Three Elven Rings.

So ...

Where were they at different times after their forging in mid-2nd Age?
In whose keeping?
What were their effects?
etc etc etc.

... Have fun.
NellasTaralom
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: December 06, 2008 02:31
I have finals this upcoming week, I have to study and won''t be free to dive into Tolkien's books until the 12th of December, so my ME lore about the Three Rings is VERY rusty.....

and I know I'm skipping ahead in the history of the Three, but we can go back to the time of Cirdan and all that. Its just, I have a burning question....

So, if Elrond's ring sustained and protected Rivendell through the Third age (when the time of elves was technically over) and Galadriel's did the same in the realm of Lothlorien.....did Gandalf's ring have the same capability? What effect did Gandalf's ring have on him, his journeys, action, and those around him? It had to have had some sort of effect: it was a ring of power. Help?????
nimloth_ithilien
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: December 21, 2008 02:34
In "The Unfinished Tales" the effect Narya had on Gandalf is written.
Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress;

The Ring Narya, may have had other powers similar to the others, but Gandalf was not permitted to use it to to rule, or have dominion over men or elves, etc.
elvishmusician
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: December 27, 2008 07:58
did Gandalf's ring have the same capability? What effect did Gandalf's ring have on him, his journeys, action, and those around him? It had to have had some sort of effect: it was a ring of power. Help?????
I remember a quote somewhere in the appendices of LOTR (I think) that when Cirdan gave the ring to Gandalf he said something about it helping him bear the burden of the task he had... helped to sustain him and give him strength etc. And I think that for Gandalf that was Narya's purpose... I will expand a little further down.

but Gandalf was not permitted to use it to to rule, or have dominion over men or elves, etc.
I always thought that Gandalf not ruling over men etc etc... was to do with his personal mandate (I think that's the right word) from the Valar... that along with the other Istari they were to unite in love all those who opposed Sauron but not use their powers to 'lord it over' anyone. Saruman strayed from his appointed task and we all know how that ended for him.

My point (yes there is one) is I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with what Gandalf's ring could or could not have done as a ring of power. Had someone else been given it who had a different purpose who's to say the ring narya would not have been like Galadriel's or Elrond's ring? I think Gandalf, given his individual purpose and objective used the ring as it needed to be used for him (which strengthened and helped him)... I don't think the books really anywhere say that Narya couldn't have done the same as the other two rings had it been wielded by someone with a different purpose but as it was also said in the books that almost everything that came to past was a LOT to do with Gandalf's personal 'meddling' if you like - so given that Gandalf was almost the 'mastermind' behind the whole LOTR operation... I think Narya being used to help sustain him was probably the most worthwhile purpose it could have had as far as the big picture is concerned.

Hope that all makes sense... been a while since i tried to do a thought-out bookish post
Beriandanwen
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: January 05, 2009 02:49
Ok, the long explanation:
The Three were made by Celebrimbor and were called Narya,Nenya and Vilya; the rings of Fire, Water and Air. They were not made to dominate others, but for knowledge and protection.

"... and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness off the world." The Silmarilion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Because these rings were so powerful, Sauron had to make the One even moreso, in order to dominate and bend them to his will. This was his downfall, for in making the One, he had to pass a great deal of his own power to the ring. That's why he needed it so much: without it, he was still powerful, but vulnerable. When he put on the One ring and cited the incantation, ("One Ring to rule them all..."), the Elven ring-bearers were aware of Sauron's betrayal, and took off their rings, becoming, in a sense "invisible" to him. Since then, it was open war between Sauron and the Elves.

Nenya was given to Galadriel, and with it she preserved Lothlorien. Elrond had Vilya and Cirdan, the shipwright had Narya, which he later passed to Gandalf.

What did the rings do?
" Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time." The Silmarilion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

As for Gandalf, and his ownership of Narya;
"Take now this Ring,' he said;' for thy labors and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill..." The Silmarilion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

And I believe you're right, Elvishmusician; no matter what powers the ring had, there is a universal mandate against personal gain and tampering with free will. Gandalf could encourage, guide and advise, but if he used force, he'd just be another Sauron! Oh, and the rings only gave powers equal to their wearers.


[Edited on 6/1/2009 by Beriandanwen]
Elthir
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: January 20, 2011 05:23
Nenya was given to Galadriel, and with it she preserved Lothlorien. Elrond had Vilya and Cirdan, the shipwright had Narya, which he later passed to Gandalf.


This is correct as a short version, and I can see why one would take the short path here because the exact movement of all Three Rings in the Second Age is not entirely clear. To focus on Nenya for a moment, one encounters the problem of where Galadriel was.

In Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn, Celebrimbor brings Nenya to Galadriel when she is already in Lindorinand (the later Lothlorien), but before Eregion's fall (in war), and she had left because Sauron seduced the Jewel-smiths to take power in Eregion. The other two of the Three were sent to Lindon at some point, given Galadriel's advice that the Three should be '... hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.'

Here Nenya is out of Eregion when Sauron's minions attack. But in my opinion Tolkien revised this story in such a way that Galadriel was not ousted from power -- or need not have been, because she was 'no longer' ruler of Eregion in the first place. If so, I'm not sure she need have been in Lorien when Celebrimbor came to her and gave her Nenya, but then, what about getting the Three out of Eregion?

It seems possible that Galadriel sojourned to Lindon (with Nenya) with the other two Rings before Sauron's forces arrived in Eregion. This is based on one of two later but competing versions of Galadriel's movements, unfortunately neither of which can be said to have replaced the other (in other words Christopher Tolkien can't tell which idea came before the other).

Anyway, in one of these competing accounts at least, Celeborn was said to have ventured to Lindorinand, and later rejoined Galadriel in Lindon. It isn't said how she got there, or that she went there with the other rings or anything, but I wonder given the earlier statement to get the Three out of Eregion.

And of course if the other version replaced this, in which Galadriel went with Celeborn to Lindorinand, then this Lindon reference becomes somewhat dubious.

In any case, Second Age migrations to Lindorinand do not equal Galadriel ruling there as yet, of course, nor could she use Nenya until Sauron's fall at the end of the Second Age. Her taking up rule in Lothlorien (with Celeborn) must await the death of Amroth in the Third Age.



[Edited on 20/1/2011 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: February 07, 2011 09:52
Could it nt be that Galadriel kept a low profile in Eregion when Celebrimbor did not believe her suspicion that Annatar was not what he seemed. As soon as he realised she was right, and knew the danger, she could easily have returned through Moria to aid him.

I have suspected for some time that Galadriel may have taken all three rings to Lindon personally, though great danger, and delivered them to Gil-Galad. It would make even more sense if her daughter Celebrian were already in Lindon under his protection. As the succeeding war progressed, Elrond established the haven of Imladris and that is where Celeborn eventually found his wife and daughter, by which time Elrond had fallen in love with Celebrian. The rest, as they say, is history.
Elthir
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: February 09, 2011 05:13
Could it nt be that Galadriel kept a low profile in Eregion when Celebrimbor did not believe her suspicion that Annatar was not what he seemed. As soon as he realised she was right, and knew the danger, she could easily have returned through Moria to aid him.


It's certainly possible in theory. You seem to have Galadriel in Lorien before the fall of Eregion (if she returned through Moria before war broke out, I take this as your meaning), which retains the basic notion from Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn (CG&C), but not that she remained in Lindorinand with Nenya (as Celebrimbor came to her).

I believe the early connection to Lorien in CG&C included: giving Galadriel a place to 'flee' once ousted as ruler of Eregion, and moreover Amroth, future ruler of Lorien, was her son. That is, this contact with Lindorinand would allow her more easily to move there once Annatar stirred the Mirdain against her -- and though I suppose Lindon was still an option, yet at the same time this would also help set up the detail that the Silvan Elves would ultimately accept Amroth as ruler when Galadriel passed to the shores of the Sea in the Second Age.

Certain other texts seem to say Celeborn and Galadriel passed to Lorien after Eregion's destruction... though the problem is, they don't say whether or not she had ever been there before its fall. But if (as I think became the revised story) Galadriel was never ousted from power in Eregion, and Amroth never her son...


Again yours is certainly a possible scenario in general, and even if my guesses are correct she still could have gone to Lorien at this time. All I'm saying is that I would tend to 'delete' any forays into Lorien pre-fall of Eregion -- as belonging to an arguably (or possibly) abandoned conception -- or at least because this would not 'disagree' with statements that might imply Galadriel only went to Lorien after Eregion fell due to war.

If that makes sense!

[Edited on 9/2/2011 by Elthir]
tarcolan
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: April 04, 2011 09:45
A question - Galadriel tells Frodo that she knows the mind of Sauron as far as it concerns the Elves, but that he cannot divine her or her rings whereabouts, which is pretty amazing really. Is this because of Nenya or more down to her innate power?
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IarwainBen_adar
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Post RE: The Three Rings: Their history, powers and significance.
on: October 11, 2011 09:01
...Oh, and the rings only gave powers equal to their wearers.


[Edited on 6/1/2009 by Beriandanwen]

In my opinion this is essential. The Rings did not give their bearers completely new powers, they just strengthen their original ones
cirdaneth
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on: March 19, 2014 05:31
* bump
Gandolorin
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on: March 20, 2014 11:01
I may have missed this point while reading here, but Elrond was not the original holder of Vilya. That was Gil-Galad, who gave Elrond Vilya in 1701 Second Age as a help to defend Rivendell, which Elrond had founded in SA 1697.
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