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nimloth_ithilien
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Post Civil War in Gondor?
on: May 28, 2009 02:21
If there is a subject covering this subject already, please tell me.
Here are a few questions I always had since reading the LotR.
If, Denethor and Boromir had somehow survived the War of the Ring, what would have happened? With Denethor still Steward and not Faramir, will there be civil war between him and Aragorn? If so, which side will the lords of Gondor, including Boromir, Faramir, and Imrahil, be on?
Thank you.
Erucenindë
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: May 30, 2009 03:23
This is an interesting topic, a good "what-if".

Obviously, we will never know what would have happened. But we can certainly guess.

I think yes, there would have been strife between Denethor and Aragorn. Denethor was not totally sound in mind, and he also was loath to give up the throne and power. Though in the end, I think Aragorn would have easily gotten it, simply because he had more right to it to begin with.

Faramir, i think would have been loyal to Aragorn. Boromir, I really don't know. It's hard to say on him.

But anyways, that's just my opinion.
MereChristian
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: May 30, 2009 04:30
Actually, I think that had Denethor and Boromir survived, Denethor would have been forced out by his sons. Faramir would have taken Aragorn's side. I also believe that at the point that he repented of his evil, Boromir would have been at the place where he would have taken Aragorn's side as well.

I bid you all adieu.
Nagzz
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: May 31, 2009 02:29
That's a really interesting question actually.. I think there definitely would be something going on between Aragorn and Denethor, and that Faramir would most probably side with Aragorn.. Boromir.. hmm, maybe with Denethor, but then again there's quite a chance he would be with Aragorn..

I think Aragorn would win at the end, though.

Interesting thought though.. I'll be thinking about it now.
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 01, 2009 04:56
I was actually just thinking about this the other day!

But I think that if Boromir had lived he would have followed Aragorn along his path (maybe not all the way to the paths of the dead, but he wouldn't abandon Merry and Pippin, and I do not think he would've abandoned the rohirrim that easily either).

Boromir and Faramir (mostly B, I think) would of course have some interior conflict. But Boromir finally achieved a greater understanding of things in the beginning of TTT and became great friends with Aragorn, and Faramir has the ability to always act in the most noble and correct way.
I don't think it would've come to the point of civil war since (in my opinion) both sons would have been on Aragorn's side. Also, the people of Gondor longed for their true king and wouldn't have supported Denethor's stubbordness.

After this one can wonder what would have happened to Denethor then? Would he have reached a tragic end in a similar way to how it actually happened? (I don't think it's impossible, seeing his sons as traitors and being replaced on the throne after so many years... I believe that could put him out of balance) Would he simply have left the city? (In that case, where would he go?) Or would he finally have submitted and accepted Aragorn as his king? (We all know Denethor wasn't always the proud, stubborn and irrational steward portrayed in TLoTR).

Ok, these are just my thoughts on the matter... but I'm afraid it was long since I read the books (two years now??).
Erucenindë
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 01, 2009 06:54
But you have to remember is that at this time, Denethor was corrupted by Sauron via the Palantir. I kinda do not think he would have submitted. Perhaps after Sauron was defeated, but I see him as a broken man by that time, never recovering. Sauron's hold on him was great. Something to think about.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 01, 2009 09:40
This is a very big “What if” because if Boromir had not been slain at Amon Hen, the decisions made there could have been otherwise and led to an entirely different story, in which case we would be the authors rather than Tolkien … but …

Let us suppose that all else at Amon Hen goes as Tolkien wrote it: Frodo and Sam head off to Mordor; Merry and Pippin are carried off towards Fangorn, and the destruction of Isengard; and the Three Hunters set off after them to encounters with Eomer, Gandalf, and Theoden, the Battle of Helm’s Deep and the Paths of the Dead. So what of Boromir?

I think Boromir would head for home, on foot, across the plains of Rohan now horribly aware of dangers more terrible than he has ever known.

Next Question: When would Boromir reach Minas Tirith, and what would he do when he got there?
nimloth_ithilien
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 03, 2009 02:37
Thank you all for replying!
what would have happened to Denethor then?

I've also been doing some research, and in "The Pyre of Denethor, RotK", Denethor says,
'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life... to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me,....But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, not love halved, nor honour abated.'

So, I'm guessing that Denethor would have probably killed himself in the end. sad.
When would Boromir reach Minas Tirith, and what would he do when he got there?

Frodo says to Faramir, "And since he was at Rauros many days back, and intended then to go straight to your city, if you return, you may soon learn the answers there..."so Boromir would perhaps reach Minas Tirith during the time Faramir had been in Ithilien, which would be from March 1st to the 7th. But if there are people and horses in Anorien, he could've borrowed one and rode the rest of the way, and probably reached there earlier.
Erucenindë
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 03, 2009 06:24
very interesting points nimloth.

That was also my thoughts as well. I always figured that if Boromir had been left alone and had not died, he would have made his way back to Minas Tirith like he always had intended to do. He would have most likely not known where everyone else went, though he probably would have guessed that at least Frodo is going to Mordor. All this being if he didn't know where anyone else was.

But what if he did? At that point, he would have the choice of to either go with Aragorn and Co, or to Minas Tirith. Frodo and Sam were out of the option, for of course the purposely left the Fellowship. In this case, being the noble person he was, I think Boromir would have gone with Aragorn. But i don't think he would have gone with the intention of never going to Minas Tirith, no, he ultimate goal was the White City and he would get there eventually.

So everything happened like it did except Boromir tagged along. I think at first perhaps there might have been some strife between Boromir and Aragorn, but in the end I really think Boromir would have chosen Aragorn's side. It came through when he died, so why not later if he lived? After travelling so long with Aragorn, I think Boromir would have come to be allies with Aragorn.

Eventually, of course, he would make it back to Minas Tirith like he always wanted as well.
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 03, 2009 08:11
Well, as I said, I think I think Boromir would have followed Aragorn on his path. But I'm not sure he would have gone to the paths of the dead. I always imagined that if he had lived, and fought in the battle at helms deep and all that he would ride with Gandalf and Pippin to minas tirith after the incident with the palantir. It would seem strange to me if they left to his city while he stayed...

By the way, how do you think Denethor would have received his son when he comes and tells him he's "sent the ring to mordor in the hands of a witless halfling"?? and on top of that he's great friends with the man that is going to replace Denethor and take over the rule of Gondor??
Tawaegas
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 04, 2009 02:01
Boromir once asked his father how long it would take for a stuart to become a king, and he was told that for Gondor it would take hundreds of years.

I think Boromir would support Aragorn, if for no other reason, because he believed what his father had told him before he got mad. He wasn't as greedy for power as people use to think, and he loved Gondor.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 04, 2009 12:00
I'm with Tawaegas here. The bottom line for Boromir and his brother is their loyalty to family and their family's loyalty to Gondor. That loyalty is based on a long-held faith in the eventual appearance of a rightful King.

I think they all know it will be difficult to relinquish control when the time comes, but they know it must be. After all, they are warriors and military men and have had to do many other hard things that must be done.

It would be harder for Denethor, because he seems to have withdrawn to the position of a protected figure-head with a purely administrative role (despite wearing his armour about the house) and has come to depend on that for his self-respect.
nimloth_ithilien
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 08, 2009 06:16
Faramir says of Boromir, "If he were satsified of Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars." So, I had always thought that Boromir would be against Aragorn, but now, I guess Boromir's loyalty to Gondor is stronger than his will to become the Ruling Steward.
Celebrian
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 09, 2009 12:48
Based on what we know about the Culture of Gondor, I think it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Boromir and Faramir to turn against their father. When Faramir let Frodo and Sam go I think it was as much because he feared what the Ring might do to his father as it was an act of rebellion against established policies.

I think Boromir respected Aragorn more for his strength and valor more than his heritage. I think he followed along behind Aragorn because it was the only way he could be accepted in the group. He would be able to keep an eye on the Ring and possible recruit able bodies to help defend his city. More than once he tried to get the group to go there.

Denethor had been worn down and subjugated by Sauron. Once Sauron was destroyed he may have come back to himself but, considering his pride, I suspect he would have killed himself anyway. It would be in shame rather than despair but I think both emotions would be impossible for such a man to bear.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 14, 2009 11:46
I think Boromir would head for home, on foot,
Oops! Silly me! There I was sending Boromir home on foot, when the quickest way was to get a boat down the portage way to the bottom of the falls and take the river.

On foot it could have taken 10 days ... SW to cross the Entwash West of the delta and then SE to Minas Tirith. By boat I reckon five. The funeral boat took three days of continuous travel, but Boromir would need to rest, and eat, and sneak through the Mouths of Entwash among the reed-beds which would slow him down a bit. Once past Entwash he can make contact with the first watch-post on the Western shore, and use one of their horses to get home across Anorien.

A five day journey would get Boromir to MT on March 2nd, the day after Faramir leaves for Ithilien, (not to interfere with Tolkien's plot too much) and a week before Gandalf and Pippin turn up.

Next question: What will Boromir do once he gets home and what will he tell his father?

[Edited on 14/6/2009 by cirdaneth]
nimloth_ithilien
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 19, 2009 11:22
Next question: What will Boromir do once he gets home and what will he tell his father?

I think Boromir would have told his father everything that he learned at the Council, and of his jouney of course. But are we supposing that Boromir tried to take the ring from Frodo or not? I think that will change a lot of things that he will say and do.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 20, 2009 02:39
Yes, Nimloth, we are keeping Tolkien's plot as closely as possible, except that Boromir is not killed at Parth Galen, so we need to fit him in to subsequent events. It helps us explore some of the characters and their relationships in detail.

So yes, Boromir has tried to take the ring from Frodo. It could be worth asking ourselves what Faramir and Denethor know and think at this point, bearing in mind that Boromir will arrive the day after Faramir leaves for Ithilien.
nimloth_ithilien
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 27, 2009 01:42
I think Boromir, having repented, will not worry himself too much over the fate of the Ring, but would concentrate on Gondor's defences, now that he is once again at the post of Captain-General. Faramir, while at Ithilien, may receive news of Boromir's return, and the answers to the Riddle, but I doubt Faramir's judgement concerning Frodo and Sam would change. Denethor may be angered or disappointed that his son had not brought back the Ring, also by the news of Aragorn, but I'm sure they will all be busy with the defences of Gondor for that time.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: June 30, 2009 08:22
Ooops! I've just discovered that no less a person than Celeborn advised an overland route to Minas Tirith for "Boromir and any that go with him", so I was right first time. It's interesting that Celeborn is aware that Boromir would be the leader of any group returning to Minas Tirith, ... presumably even if it included Aragorn.

Anyway , back to the overland route. I reckon it would take him ten days so he will still arrive between the departure of Faramir and the arrival of Gandalf.

I agree with Nimloth on most points, but there is one thing to remember ...

Denethor and his sons all believed that the One Ring was lost for ever until they saw it or were told of it. They were unaware of Isildur's document in the archives, so Denethor was not expecting Boromir to bring it.

Boromir and Faramir were, however, extremely worried by their dreams and even Denethor was worried enough to agree to Boromir's journey to Rivendell, a place situated they knew not where except that it was somewhere in the North. Only there did Boromir find out what Isildur's Bane was.
nimloth_ithilien
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: August 24, 2009 12:42
I'm back. I wonder if Denethor could see Boromir returning from Amon Hen, and if he could see Faramir with the Halflings through the Palantir. Denethor will know a lot then!
Anyway, with Boromir there, Denethor may have sent both his sons to Osgiliath instead of one. In that case, they may have been able to hold off longer, but eventually they will have had to retreat. Boromir and Faramir may or may not have been slain or wounded. But if either one of them were well and alive, I doubt that Denethor would become mad. Even if he saw Frodo captured in the tower, and he could see no hope, with both or one of his sons still defending, he may not have killed himself. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields will most likely be won, and maybe Gandalf could have been out there saving King Theoden's life!
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Post RE: Civil War in Gondor?
on: August 30, 2009 06:46
Ooops! I've just discovered that no less a person than Celeborn advised an overland route to Minas Tirith for "Boromir and any that go with him", so I was right first time. It's interesting that Celeborn is aware that Boromir would be the leader of any group returning to Minas Tirith, ... presumably even if it included Aragorn.


It might not mean that Celeborn expected Boromir to be the leader of the group. "Boromir and any that go with him" might mean "Boromir's definitely going back to Minas Tirith no matter what, and some of the others may also choose to go there."
cirdaneth
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on: June 14, 2014 12:35
Worth reconsidering. The original post was ...

If, Denethor and Boromir had somehow survived the War of the Ring, what would have happened? With Denethor still Steward and not Faramir, will there be civil war between him and Aragorn? If so, which side will the lords of Gondor, including Boromir, Faramir, and Imrahil, be on?
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