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Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: The Silmarillion » Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 21, 2009 07:01
... all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Elves in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were the bitterest foes.

And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom the served in fear, the maker only of their misery


Could the breeding of the Orcs could be comparable to Stockholm Syndrome and the modern day brainwashing of captives to the point where they switch sides?


[Edited on 21/7/2009 by PotbellyHairyfoot]

[Edited on 22/7/2009 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
starofdunedain
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 21, 2009 07:54
I think SS and brainwashing are very likely but I also think that maybe the captives succumbed to hoplessness and reached a breaking point where they slowly gave way to the alternative, becoming slaves to Melkor, thinking it was better option than being tortured and imprisioned.
That's my theory.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 21, 2009 11:25
I've always assumed that the Elves were broken through fear and anger. The idea that comes to the front in so much of Tolkien's writing is that evil, ultimately, is self-defeating: evil prays on fear, and fear creates selfishness and violence. The heroes in the books are always people who stand up to that fear.

But I like the idea of the Stockholm Syndrome, actually. What made you think of that?
Sullhach
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 22, 2009 12:13
From Tolkiens writings in *The Peoples of Middle-Earth* you can learn that Morgoth breeded different kind of orcs. One kind has its origin in the elves and this seem to have retained some of their abilities and acquired characteristies for example not to die of old age (in the LotR some orcs talk of events of the first age and their paticipation) or to heal (take the drinks and healing creams of the orcs they used for Merry and Pippin) and the endurance in physical aspects.
Other orcs were breeded from the human race.
Even Saruman breeded orcs.
But I was always asking myself, how the new attributes were passed on their progeny, if the marring was only treated on a single elf.
Maybe Morgoth changed somehow their genom of physical appearance and therefor they envied their *normal-looking* kindreds and were not accepted by them any more.
Hints to this may be find in the book of the Lost Tales, where Gnomes who came free from Angband were not welcomed by their own relatives, just remember Gwindor!
The bitterness about this treatment shurely leads to feelings of hate.
What do you think about this?
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 22, 2009 12:37
I'm not sure about the Stockholm Syndrome... The SS implies that people start feeling sympathy towards those that have tortured them and held them captive. That would mean that the Orcs actually like their master. Yet the second quote clearly states that the orcs hate Melkor and only serve him in fear. So I think rather that Melkor managed to break the elves minds with torture and fear so that they would follow any order he gave them.
But I don't think he made them believe in his cause, the reason for the slaughter and destruction. Unlike in the case of the corrupted maiar, it wasn't necessary for the orcs to understand or develop some kind of loyalty... lies and fear were quite enough.
Sullhach
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 24, 2009 09:38
The only sign of SS in the first age may be the fact that Maedhros and Maglor found Elrond and Elros in a cave after the slaying at Sirion, they fostered them, and after that there grew real affection, mostly between maglor and the twins.
Joanna
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 24, 2009 10:10
I also would say that there isn't a stockholm syndrom! Because this syndrom appears when there just/really few people and that you have to build up with them sort of group (people who have a norm, rules and interreact togehter). the men are a race that needs the contact with other human beings!
quote: The SS implies that people start feeling sympathy towards those that have tortured them and held them captive.
And there's something more than just sympathie. Sometimes the captives begin to consider the people who tortured them as protecters and the police as the enemy!
So as it seems that not only two or four elves were made prisoners, I don't think that there isn't a stockholm syndrom. And as Heru sinye pointed out: the orcs don't like Melkor.
Joanna
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 24, 2009 10:12
Sorry I meant heri_sinyë
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 24, 2009 03:38
So instead of being conditioned to like Melkor, the Orcs were bred to hate Elves; their ancestors, likely over several generations of deprivation, bad food, bad breeding, torture etc. Instead of Stockholm Syndrome over a few months or years, the Orcs were developed over several generations. Rather than learning to love their captor, they learned to hate what he hated.

I wonder if some of the bad characteristics could have come from crossbreeding with Melkor's corrupted Maia.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Quote of the Week July 20/09- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
on: July 26, 2009 05:50
I think you are right there, PB!

Breeding from elves would be possible, but there are three things that occur to me as the bottom line for this.

1) It would be hard to corrupt the fea of an elf, although it is possible to play on their fears, weaknesses and rivalries.

2) If an elf-woman was raped she would fall into grief and her fea flee from her body to the halls of Mandos for healing. It would be impossible to cross a male elf with something he knew to be ‘other’ because …

3) To the elves physical union IS the marriage and bonds the two souls until the End of Days. Only one special dispensation is known to have occurred.

… So I believe that elves would have to be crossbred not by force, but by illusion. We know that maiar can breed with elves (Melian/Thingol), and we know that many Maiar can appear in fair forms, or be made to do so by Morgoth. It would not have been difficult to ‘rescue’ lost elves and seduce them in this way into marriages they believed were legitimate.

Their offspring would be born with the corruption of the maia partner, which would probably affect their physical appearance, as elves maintain their bodies by a process of will and memory, which in this case would be faulty. With a later admixture of human genes, and breeding selectively for strength and aggression, you have orcs.

Their inner torture might come from that part of the fea which knows (subconsciously) that it is a prisoner in thrall, descended from a thing of beauty, thus they hate their master for controlling them and the elves for their freedom.

Just my take on it anyway.
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