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Spragh
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Post Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: December 28, 2009 09:10
I always wondered where is his spirit contained.Is it in the EYE,or in some chamber in Barad-dur?I know that the EYE is his,but does it have source from fortress under it.And if Sauron could gain the ring,would he again take the form as before?We all know that he controled the armies of Orcs,how did he speak to them?
Elthir
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Post RE: Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: December 28, 2009 09:25
Sauron did not need the One to make a new body, although (in any case) it took him a longer time to make one in the Third Age than it had in the Second.

See Appendix B for the relatively short gap of time after Sauron was slain in the drowning of Numenor, for example.
Spragh
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Post RE: Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: January 16, 2010 02:45
Hi again.I remebered why i started this topic.Its because i dont see why Sauron wanted the ring back.Just to keep it safe,or to use it.Then again,how could he use it if he does not have the body.He would not give it to some of his minions.What is the power of the ring after all,exept that bindes the other rings.So,he would have the ring,and then what?I think that he would make another body.And go for glory him self.But,since i dont know where was his spirit contained,at the fortress,i dont think he could.After all,he did once or twice,but he loses that power.Pih...It is so unclear to me...Why did he want the ring back.Just to keep it,so himself would not be destroyed?For how long?Probably untill he destroy all good,but,it is a risk,it is not for shure victory...unless...he would use the Ring...HOW?
_Mebedir_
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Post RE: Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: January 16, 2010 07:59
he needed it because most of his power and spirit was connected directly with the ring..so without it he's much weaker and vulnerable. also if he had it he could find the 3 hidden elven rings and read the minds of the ones wearing them, and as far as i understand it partially control them as well
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: January 16, 2010 09:49
The whole purpose of the One Ring was to "Rule them all". Sauron taught the Elves how to make the Rings of Power so that he would then have a way to control them. However, to create a ring powerful enough to do what he wanted it to do, he had to pour a large amount of his own spirit into it--I suppose you could say he put all his eggs in one basket. This was his weakness; if the Ring was destroyed, enough of his spirit would be lost to render him impotent in the affairs of Middle-earth.

However (as we've discussed in another thread), it never occurred to Sauron that anyone upon finding the ring would attempt to destroy it rather than wield it. He sought it not as a protective measure but because he still thirsted for that power. His hatred of the Elves had not diminished; if anything it had grown stronger. We he learned that the One Ring still existed, he sought it with all his might for the same reason he had created it in the first place. He wanted to able to rule over the Three Rings and what the Elves had wrought with them, and then to destroy them.

I believe the Ring is at times referred to as the Weapon of the Enemy. That perhaps is the easiest way to explain why he looked for it: it was his secret weapon, and he wanted it back.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: January 17, 2010 05:00
Also, at the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron did have a body. The previous incarnation was maybe destroyed when he was overcome by Elendil and Gil-galad, and it must have taken much longer for him to create a new one than before, but as long as the Ring existed, he was able to do it. For example, Gollum quite clearly states that "He has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough." (TTT, The Black Gate is Closed)
Elthir
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Post RE: Sauron's spirit...where was it?
on: January 17, 2010 05:17
(...) Then again, how could he use it if he does not have the body. He would not give it to some of his minions. (...) So, he would have the ring, and then what? I think that he would make another body.


But ultimately Sauron did have a body in the Third Age, and he made it without the One (of course). Note Gollum's description of Sauron's hand, just for one example. Sauron desired the One again, but actually he did not need it to defeat his enemies. But that said...

'While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced.' JRRT, letter 131

And if someone else found it, it was possible that...

'... the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.' JRRT, letter 131

The idea is, if the One Ring is destroyed or unmade, then Sauron cannot rebuild his body; while it still existed however, Sauron could, and did, rebuild his physical form in the Third Age: 'I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.' JRRT, letter 200, 1957

Edit: I posted this before seeing Morwinyoniel's post on Sauron's body



[Edited on 17/1/2010 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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on: December 29, 2013 11:37
Here's an interesting thread, in the light of recent posts. Hard to believe it has been inactive for four years. There are some good ideas in here.
Gandolorin
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on: January 01, 2014 12:41
All of the Valar (never mind the Maiar) were beings of limited power – none of them were Eru. So embodiment caused them to lose a part of their power. Think of THoME – the book Morgoth’s Ring. He squandered most of his power in an attempt to counter all of what the other Valar had created. At the end, he was less powerful than Sauron, having dissipated his limited power too far. Sauron started at a much lower level. Lost an embodiment at the destruction of Numenor near the end of the Second Age, again at the very end of the Second Age. Previously, he had been able to assume a fair hue to fool the elves of Eregion in the Second Age, never again thereafter.
And then being without The Ring.
Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn could very likely have destroyed him, having gained control of The Ring. Problem is, each of them would have become an updated version of Sauron.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: February 17, 2014 05:55
I think Tolkien's letter number 246 says something about Gandalf being the only one who could claim the Ring.



[Edited on 02/17/2014 by Lord_Sauron]
Gandolorin
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on: February 17, 2014 12:35
Lord_Sauron said:I think Tolkien's letter number 246 says something about Gandalf being the only one who could claim the Ring.



[Edited on 02/17/2014 by Lord_Sauron]


One of the longer letters ...

It is not entirely clear if Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White is meant. Gandalf the Grey clearly states that Saruman was the preeminent of the Istari, so one should not count him out. But Saruman is also depicted as having been ensnared by Sauron with the Palantiri they both had, so he might not have been much different from the Nâzgul had he gotten the One Ring under his control. And Gandalf the White destroyed Saruman's staff, and was vastly superior to his former Superior. But I would say that if Gandalf the Grey rejected the One Ring utterly, Gandalf the White would not have wasted a nanosecond's thought on changing his formerly grey mind.
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~nólemë~
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on: February 18, 2014 02:25
Gandolorin said:But Saruman is also depicted as having been ensnared by Sauron with the Palantiri they both had, so he might not have been much different from the Nâzgul had he gotten the One Ring under his control.


I'm far from sure about that. He defected, didn't he? He wanted the Ring for himself, and built an army for himself, not for his 'master'. Totally not what a nazgul would do.
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Gandolorin
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on: February 18, 2014 03:00
~nólemë~ said:
Gandolorin said:But Saruman is also depicted as having been ensnared by Sauron with the Palantiri they both had, so he might not have been much different from the Nâzgul had he gotten the One Ring under his control.


I'm far from sure about that. He defected, didn't he? He wanted the Ring for himself, and built an army for himself, not for his 'master'. Totally not what a nazgul would do.


mmmyes, I may have FoTR The Film too much in mind, where PJ (most likely wrongly) "clarifies" the relationship between Sauron and Saruman to that of the latter's having become an accomplice of the former, which is far from clear in the book. But then one couldn't say that Saruman had "defected" from Sauron in the book. It is just never stated so clearly on way or the other as far as I can remember. The Nazgul are unequivocally stated as being so in thrall of the One Ring (because Sauron held their former Nine Rings? again not explicitly stated yea or nay) that they would bring the One Ring back to Sauron without delay.

Speculation: Saruman was feigning alliance to Sauron in their Palantir conversations - or trying to. To what degree he was successful in his deceit is another matter. And (no speculation) Saruman tries to convince Gandalf that the two of them should change sides, more or less - to which Gandalf replies with the irrefutable fact that only on hand at a time can hold the One Ring. To what degree was Saruman deceiving himself as to his possibility of independent action?

So in that sense Gandalf may have been the most dangerous Opponent for Sauron due to his (Gandalf's) unremitting opposition to Sauron - which would still not have saved Gandalf from becoming a Sauron 2.0. This, again, for Gandalf the Grey - I would maintain my opinion that Gandalf the White was beyond any such temptation to take the One Ring.
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Gildor Inglorion
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on: February 19, 2014 06:13

Saruman would not have become like a Nazgul if he claimed the Ring since he is one of the Maiar, and Sauron is, so he would gain a power much like that of Sauron's. The Nazgul were men, and men were easily corrupted by Sauron, which is why they became enthralled to him. The elves and dwarves that possessed rings could have become wraiths enslaved to Sauron too, but the elves became aware of the One Ring, hid their rings, and never trusted Sauron again. The dwarven rings were consumed by dragons for the most part, but I am not sure where the others went. Some of them were taken back to Mordor, I believe.

[Edited on 02/20/2014 by Gildor Inglorion]
Gildor Inglorion
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on: February 19, 2014 06:13

Sauron was not Saruman's master, per say, but he desired to be alike to him in terms of power. He did not 'defect,' since he was never really Sauron's true ally. He created his army to rival Sauron, and to help him if he ever got the Ring. Saruman wanted to ally with Sauron, but that was in order to be able to overpower him later on, take the Ring, and, to quote Gollum, "We become the Master!" Basically, Saruman was deceiving Sauron.

Overall, the Sauron-Saruman-Ring stuff is very confusing; I would like to do some more in depth research about this; the stuff I am writing here is just off the top of my head.

[Edited on 02/20/2014 by Gildor Inglorion]
Gildor Inglorion
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on: February 19, 2014 06:13
I thought that Saruman wanted the Ring for himself; he spent years trying to find it. He was never truly in league with Sauron, but he desired to be as or more powerful than him. Saruman was seeking the Ring while Bilbo and the dwarves were reclaiming Erebor (I may be wrong there), and he deceived the White Council for quite some time on his intentions. It was not until Gandalf was rescued by Gwaithir (the eagle) from the top of Orthanc and flown to Lorien that the White Council (or really Galadriel and Celeborn; Elrond found out later at the Council of Elrond) learned of Saruman's schemes. Sauron meanwhile kept an eye on Saruman, but he never saw him as an ally or someone who could match his power.

As for Gandalf, he would not take the Ring since his job as one of the Istari was to aid the peoples of Middle-Earth in their war against Sauron. Taking the Ring would lead him on an entirely different path, and since (as Christopher Tolkien was pretty sure his father stated) Gandalf, like Sauron, was one of the Maiar, he would become just as powerful as Sauron was in the Second Age.
tarcolan
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on: February 20, 2014 01:56
I would trust the perceptions of Gandalf the White, in 'The Voice Of Saruman' chapter (Bk III Ch X).
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on: February 21, 2014 02:10
Gildor Inglorion said:The elves and dwarves that possessed rings could have become wraiths enslaved to Sauron too, but the elves became aware of the One Ring, hid their rings, and never trusted Sauron again. The dwarven rings were consumed by dragons for the most part, but I am not sure where the others went. Some of them were taken back to Mordor, I believe.


Sauron gained 3 Dwarf rings back, and the rest were consumed by dragons. But the Dwarves weren't suitable wraith material, as their rings didn't enslave them, they only intensified their desire for hoarding treasures.

Gildor Inglorion said:It was not until Gandalf was rescued by Gwaithir (the eagle) from the top of Orthanc and flown to Lorien that the White Council (or really Galadriel and Celeborn; Elrond found out later at the Council of Elrond) learned of Saruman's schemes.


I believe the Council learned about Saruman's treachery only when Gandalf arrived in Rivendell. If I'm not mistaken, Gwaihir took him to Edoras first, and once Gandalf tamed Shadowfax he made straight for the Shire.
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