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cirdaneth
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Post Gollum as Ringbearer
on: March 29, 2010 09:16
Member Lord Sauron asks:
At the end of the lord of the rings i know that all the ringbearers go to the undying lands also it says in the appendices that samwise is also allowed to go years later. My question is if frodo did throw the ring in mt doom and gollum survived do you think gollum would be allowed to go to undying lands seeing that he held the ring for 500 years and he also led frodo to mordor.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: March 29, 2010 04:23
That's an interesting question. I think perhaps Gollum would not have been allowed to go to the Undying Lands, considering that his possession of the ring (or rather, its possession of him?) began with murder. Bilbo's time as Ringbearer began, you will remember, with pity, and Gandalf's opinion was that Bilbo's kind heart was what kept the Ring from having too much power over him. Frodo inherited the Ring, and perhaps may be said to have begun his Bearership with love for Bilbo, and Sam began his out of duty and loyalty to Frodo and to the Quest. I don't think Gollum had the purest intentions when he led Frodo and Sam to Mordor--remember, he led them first to Shelob. After that, he left them on their own until he caught up with them at Mount Doom.

In short, I don't think mere possession of the Ring qualifies one for admission to the Undying Lands. I think some degree of humility and purity of heart is required as well.
Iavas87
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: March 30, 2010 08:17
I agree with LadyBeruthiel. The Ringbearers were granted the grace of coming to Valinor for a measure of spiritual healing prior to death by the Valar, both at the behest of individuals like Arwen and Galadriel, but also for their service against Sauron.

Gollum, pitiable though he was, made no effort against the power of Evil, save in his attempts to keep the power of the Ring to himself, and so the Valar had no reason to grant him any such invitation.

It's not like holding the Ring is a free ticket to the Undying Lands, but rather the Valar appreciated the service of the Frodo and Samwise and pitied the suffering that they went through to achieve it, so they made an exception to their "No Mortals" policy.

[Edited on 30/3/2010 by Iavas87]
Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: April 23, 2010 12:42
I'm inclined to agree. It seems to me that although Gandalf hoped for Gollum to be cured, his hope was a rather naive one I don't understand it, since Gandalf knew what was what. Perhaps he had a blind spot where Gollum was concerned.


But Gollum was willing to kill to obtain the Ring at a time when Sauron was weak and dissipated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dark Lord wasn't in any fit state to go possessing or influencing people via the Ring, so it seems likely that Smeagol's murder of Deagol was as much an act of his own will as that of Sauron's influence. He was willing to kill.

Neither Frodo nor Sam nor Bilbo, though they greatly desired the Ring, were willing to murder for it, even when Sauron was much stronger and more able to influence people via the Ring.

Of course, I could be wrong about this...
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: April 25, 2010 04:43
I don't think that Gollum would have survived the destruction of the One Ring long enough to travel anywhere. His unnatural life had been extended by the Ring and It was the driving force behind his very reason for being. His only reason for existence seemed to be simply to regain the ring. Once The One was destroyed I'm confident that Gollum, with the Ring's life extending abilities gone and thus having no reason to keep living, would very rapidly waste away to nothing.

Bilbo possessed the One for a much shorter period of time and was much less influenced by it and far less focused on it, but he still aged fairly rapidly once he gave it away, and even more rapidly once it was gone. Gollum had Sauron's Ring in his possession for a much longer period of time and was far more influenced by it and focused on it. He would suffer the loss of its influence and abilities to a far greater degree.

[Edited on 25/4/2010 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: April 25, 2010 04:45
That's a very strong possibility. I can't see any reason to disagree. Good point!
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: April 29, 2010 09:11
Thanks for your replies and i now agree with you all, i believe that if Deagol had found another ring other then the one ring, Smeagol would have still killed Deagol because the other 19 rings of power were greater in apperance and looked more grander then a Golden ring that appeared to be worthless.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: April 30, 2010 03:42
I think you're right, Lord S. In fact, I think Smeagol would have killed Deagol over any ordinary old piece of jewelry, magic or not, 'cause that's the kind of guy he was.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: May 15, 2010 04:54
Everything that has mentioned here makes sense, but I'd like to point out that even if Gollum had survived, and for some unfathomable reason he had offered a chance to go to undying lands, I doubt he would have been overly elated by the idea. Do we want to go to the home of nasssty elves preciouss, no? Didn't think so.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: May 15, 2010 05:02
I'm with you, Ithildinel. His personality wouldn't have changed a bit. Remember how Bilbo turned into a monster for a moment in the movie? Not strictly canonical, but that was die to minimal exposure to the Ring. Gollum had kept the thing for something close to 500 years. I think he'd have been too twisted to either be allowed to go there, or to appreciate it if he did.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: May 16, 2010 12:16
I think the manner in which each of them came to possess the Ring plays a role here as well. Bilbo's first action was one of pity and Frodo took the Ring out of duty. Both of those are noble acts which deserve reward. Gollum started with murder... not so noble. And as LadyBeruthiel pointed out, he must have been of a bad sort naturally to be so easily and quickly corrupted.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: May 16, 2010 02:15
That's my position. I completely agree. He was willing to kill -- none of the other Ringbearers were so inclined -- they were gentle by nature.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 17, 2010 06:16
Just a thought. Would Deagol fight to the death over a trinket? I think the Ring was affecting him, too. It could have got him instead. Gandalf intimates to Frodo that this might have happened to anyone "... even to some hobbits I have known." Anyway The Man had to rewrite The Hobbit to focus in on the concept of pity. Now there's a question. What if it didn't have to be a sequel as Unwin asked? Would there even BE a Ring?
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Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 17, 2010 06:31
Just a thought. Would Deagol fight to the death over a trinket?


No, I think he got caught up in a situation that got out of hand. I'd say he was defending his right to own what he had found, then Smeagol killed him not so much because Deagol had fought back, but because Deagol would have reported the incident if he had lived to do so.


I think the Ring was affecting him, too. It could have got him instead. Gandalf intimates to Frodo that this might have happened to anyone "... even to some hobbits I have known."


But why didn't it? I reckon Smeagol was chosen because he was willing to kill. The others weren't. I mean, Sam was right in Mordor and he could have killed Frodo for it. Instead, he willingly handed it back, even though he was reluctant to do so.

Anyway The Man had to rewrite The Hobbit to focus in on the concept of pity. Now there's a question. What if it didn't have to be a sequel as Unwin asked? Would there even BE a Ring?


I don't think LOTR was intended as a sequel as such because it's so very different in tone and indeed in scope. Whoever is right, I'm glad the Professor wrote it.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 17, 2010 10:11
I've always wondered about the ringbearer thing. Mainly that the ringbearers that were allowed to sail into the west gave it up willingly, except Frodo. If Gollum hadn't bitten off his finger at Mount Doom he would've (well he did) claimed it for himself.

"The ring is mine!"

Perhaps the fact he had it for so long and how he (up until the final moment) resisted its evil was taken into account.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 17, 2010 10:31
Candy, Smeagol was "chosen" but Bilbo was an accident? I don't get that. Why assume he was chosen by the ring? . I reckon Gollum would have been let in to Valinor if he had survived. Pity is for those who have no choice, whatever they may have done. Maybe he just succumbed to the ring quicker than Deagol.
I can't accept that going to Valinor is some sort of reward for being good. Nobody could judge Gollum but the Valar. Compassion is not concerned with past actions. Like justice, it is blind.
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Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 18, 2010 12:39
Candy, Smeagol was "chosen" but Bilbo was an accident? I don't get that. Why assume he was chosen by the ring?


The Ring contained the essence of Sauron, so it needed someone whom it could exert influence over. Bilbo was another matter. I think it was Gandalf who said that Gollum was too mean and small-minded to give the ring what it wanted. Perhaps it assumed that Bilbo would give it more options.

We know for certain it was trying to find a way back to Sauron so he could be reunited with that part of himself that he had put into it. Gollum wasn't going to make that happen. Why would Bilbo be an accident? I don't think he was. I think he was chosen, too.


I reckon Gollum would have been let in to Valinor if he had survived. Pity is for those who have no choice, whatever they may have done. Maybe he just succumbed to the ring quicker than Deagol.
I can't accept that going to Valinor is some sort of reward for being good. Nobody could judge Gollum but the Valar. Compassion is not concerned with past actions. Like justice, it is blind.


If that were true, why did Arwen have to give up her immortal life? Explain Numenor. They went to attack Valinor because they were jealous of the Elves' immortality and Sauron had persuaded them that there was something in the land itself that granted immortality.

Basically, Men weren't welcome. The only Man who ever made it to Valinor was Tuor, but that was because of Ulmo's intercession. Being married to an Elf was not a ticket in.

So... being allowed into Valinor if you were not a "good" Elf or special Elf-friend (need I discuss the flight of the Noldor? Galadriel and her people weren't allowed to return until after she had "passed the test," if memory serves. Going back at any time wasn't an option.) doesn't seem to be about compassion.

Not to me.

It's too easy to use our own ideas of judgment and mercy to decide what we can or can't accept. I'm glad you're a compassionate person, but if Tolkien's Valinor worked the way you appear to think it does, it would be very different from the way it is portrayed in the text.

[Edited on 18/7/2010 by Candy]

[Edited on 18/7/2010 by Candy]
Ilandir
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 18, 2010 01:47
I'm sure there was a reason for every character and every event to occur. Deagol was meant to find the ring - in turn Smeagol and Bilbo, finally to Frodo. It must all have been the masterplan of Iluvatar ... as happens in Mount Doom, when he makes Gollum fall over the cliff to destroy the Ring - that's Fate.
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Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 18, 2010 01:49
I'm sure there was a reason for every character and every event to occur. Deagol was meant to find the ring - in turn Smeagol and Bilbo, finally to Frodo. It must all have been the masterplan of Iluvatar ... as happens in Mount Doom, when he makes Gollum fall over the cliff to destroy the Ring - that's Fate.


That makes perfect sense.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 19, 2010 10:23
Thanks for the compliment Candy but I don't deserve it. It's easy to say one is compassionate but a bit trickier to achieve in reality. I have watched good people succumb to the 'imperative' drugs as I call them, and cannot condemn them for the wrongs they did. Were they flawed or victims of circumstance? "There but for the grace of Eru"? So then-

I am afraid I don't agree that Iluvatar interferes so much, but only because it spoils the fun. If Iluvatar pushed Gollum in, chose Bilbo etc. then there's no point in this forum or any other, and that would be awful. Saying "It is the will of Eru" is not very satisfying, especially when discussing the books. So here goes.

Elrond's library records that the ring had a powerful influence on Smeagol, who was already flawed. Well I'm no saint. Is there any other history of Smeagol to indicate he was a bad 'un? He lived with his family and went fishing with his cousin, so he wasn't a total villain.

Also I don't think the Ring 'chose' Deagol until he was in the river anyway. What if he'd been alone? If it had summoned him, why not an orc or ringwraith? I think the ring took the chance and then swapped to Smeagol. Not a good 'choice' in the end as it got itself buried under the mountains. Chance? Fate? Or did Eru arrange it? Nope, I still hold out hope for Gollum. Maybe he did go to Valinor when he died but he didn't like it.

"what if" is my favourite game, by the way. Of course Frodo must still succeed, otherwise no book.

Please castigate at will, for is it not written- 'Those who are always right can never learn.'
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Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 19, 2010 10:35
Thanks for the compliment Candy but I don't deserve it. It's easy to say one is compassionate but a bit trickier to achieve in reality. I have watched good people succumb to the 'imperative' drugs as I call them, and cannot condemn them for the wrongs they did. Were they flawed or victims of circumstance? "There but for the grace of Eru"? So then-

I am afraid I don't agree that Iluvatar interferes so much, but only because it spoils the fun.


Interesting point...


If Iluvatar pushed Gollum in, chose Bilbo etc. then there's no point in this forum or any other, and that would be awful. Saying "It is the will of Eru" is not very satisfying, especially when discussing the books.


Come to think of it, although it sounds reasonable, it does rather close down debate, doesn't it? Yeah...





Elrond's library records that the ring had a powerful influence on Smeagol, who was already flawed. Well I'm no saint. Is there any other history of Smeagol to indicate he was a bad 'un? He lived with his family and went fishing with his cousin, so he wasn't a total villain.


Hmm... now this is where you and I part company, agreement-wise. You see, other people exposed to the ring, even Frodo, who had the opportunity to kill, didn't. So it all comes back to why Smeagol actually killed Deagol. He could have just clobbered him or stolen the ring later on.

I think we can agree that he didn't even have the ring in his possession at that point. I'm no saint either but I've got my limits and I know where they are. Some people don't discover theirs till they're put in a position and given a choice to do something good or bad. The choice you make then decides the course your life takes after that, because you spend the rest of your life dealing with the consequences. If Smeagol's killing of Deagol was basically an accident, the things he did subsequent to that were deliberate.

Also I don't think the Ring 'chose' Deagol until he was in the river anyway. What if he'd been alone? If it had summoned him, why not an orc or ringwraith? I think the ring took the chance and then swapped to Smeagol.


That works.

Chance? Fate? Or did Eru arrange it? Nope, I still hold out hope for Gollum. Maybe he did go to Valinor when he died but he didn't like it.


Yes, but why? I think you want him to experience redemption, but people can put themselves beyond that state by refusing to accept it when it's offered. He had his chance among the Elves. He didn't even like them, so why would he accept an opportunity to live among them in Valinor, if it were offered? I don't get that. I'd like to explore it, though.

"what if" is my favourite game, by the way. Of course Frodo must still succeed, otherwise no book.


I love what-if stories!

Please castigate at will, for is it not written- 'Those who are always right can never learn.'


I wouldn't presume to castigate, it's not really fair to do that, but argue in a friendly way? You bet! I find this stimulating.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 19, 2010 03:02
Candy said
Some people don't discover theirs till they're put in a position and given a choice to do something good or bad.

The problem is we can't always be sure whether it is good or bad. Intentions are one thing...
Free will against destiny eh. I take the point. I was only kidding about Valinor, I agree with you and Ithildinel, it would have been torture for him. I just don't think he was automatically excluded as suggested by LadyBeruthiel. Even Frodo succumbed in the end, as mentioned by SilmarilEyes, and may have killed, so is it about measuring how long you can resist?
And as I said, I don't believe Sméagol would have killed Déagol for another ring. Had his character flaws laid dormant until then? Perhaps. But it reduces the Ring to a passive trinket, and I think it influenced Sméagol at that moment as it perceived that he was more corruptible. He was unfortunate, as Gandalf implies, rather than evil and may have gone on to correct the flaws but for the Ring.


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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 19, 2010 10:27

The problem is we can't always be sure whether it is good or bad. Intentions are one thing...
Free will against destiny eh. I take the point. I was only kidding about Valinor, I agree with you and Ithildinel, it would have been torture for him. I just don't think he was automatically excluded as suggested by LadyBeruthiel. Even Frodo succumbed in the end, as mentioned by SilmarilEyes, and may have killed, so is it about measuring how long you can resist?


Possibly. Galadriel was allowed back because she had fought against Sauron and had resisted the ring.

And as I said, I don't believe Sméagol would have killed Déagol for another ring. Had his character flaws laid dormant until then? Perhaps.

Meaning, did he need a nudge to become a killer? Yeah, I'd say so.

But it reduces the Ring to a passive trinket, and I think it influenced Sméagol at that moment as it perceived that he was more corruptible. He was unfortunate, as Gandalf implies, rather than evil and may have gone on to correct the flaws but for the Ring.

That's a very reasonable assumption. I believe that there are times when you come to a crossroads, and when you reach that point, you choose one road or the other. If you choose one road, it may be inconvenient to do the things required of you there but in the long run it's better for you.

If you choose the path of instant gratification, you will be happy for a while, then the consequences of your actions will catch up on you.

Now here's where it gets interesting: on each of the paths you choose, there's a way back, but the decisions you make and your perceptions of the situation influence the way you deal with things. If you believe that you can't go back because you're afraid of being punished or worried about missing out on something you want, you won't allow yourself to go back, even though you can.

Therefore, once you have decided on a path to take, you end up becoming more entrenched in the attitude you took when embarking upon it. Smeagol became Gollum, then Smeagol returned for a while. He was offered the chance at the top of the stair at Mordor to let the Gollum part of him go, but he decided to let Smeagol go instead. Why? He was too accustomed to being Gollum, and there was a sniff of a chance at getting the ring.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 20, 2010 05:50
I am afraid I don't agree that Iluvatar interferes so much, but only because it spoils the fun. If Iluvatar pushed Gollum in, chose Bilbo etc. then there's no point in this forum or any other, and that would be awful. Saying "It is the will of Eru" is not very satisfying, especially when discussing the books. So here goes.


Well, that's not me saying it - it's Tolkien himself. In one of his letters he said that Gollum's fall was intentional - a sort of Divine Intervention. When Frodo was struck down after having his finger bitten off, there was no hope for the people of middle-earth, so Iluvatar 'made' Gollum slip so the Ring could be destroyed [Eucatasrophe] - (written like that, it sounds abit too cliche' but that's what happened)
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Candy
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 20, 2010 05:52
Well, that's not me saying it - it's Tolkien himself. In one of his letters he said that Gollum's fall was intentional - a sort of Divine Intervention. When Frodo was struck down after having his finger bitten off, there was no hope for the people of middle-earth, so Iluvatar 'made' Gollum slip so the Ring could be destroyed [Eucatasrophe] - (written like that, it sounds abit too cliche' but that's what happened)


So it was.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 20, 2010 06:14
Chance? Fate? Or did Eru arrange it? Nope, I still hold out hope for Gollum. Maybe he did go to Valinor when he died but he didn't like it.


Yes, but why? I think you want him to experience redemption, but people can put themselves beyond that state by refusing to accept it when it's offered. He had his chance among the Elves. He didn't even like them, so why would he accept an opportunity to live among them in Valinor, if it were offered? I don't get that. I'd like to explore it, though.


Well, for sure, Gollum didn't go to Valinor after he died. According to Tolkien, the spirits of mortals went to their own compartment in the Halls of Mandos, and after being "purged" there for as long as necessary, left for somewhere outside time and place. Only the spirits of the Elves were re-embodied and released to Valinor. Could be that a spirit of a mortal, just like a spirit of an Elf, also had the right to refuse to go to Mandos.

Going to the Undying Lands with the Elves was a special favour given to Frodo and Bilbo (and rather certainly also Sam), and even they died there in time and passed on.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 20, 2010 06:17
Well, for sure, Gollum didn't go to Valinor after he died. According to Tolkien, the spirits of mortals went to their own compartment in the Halls of Mandos, and after being "purged" there for as long as necessary, left for somewhere outside time and place. Only the spirits of the Elves were re-embodied and released to Valinor. Could be that a spirit of a mortal, just like a spirit of an Elf, also had the right to refuse to go to Mandos.

Going to the Undying Lands with the Elves was a special favour given to Frodo and Bilbo (and rather certainly also Sam), and even they died there in time and passed on.


Correct. Valinor was made by the Valar for fellowship with the Elves. Other races weren't meant to be allowed there, but a few special Elf-friends were permitted entry.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 23, 2010 09:25
Candy said
Therefore, once you have decided on a path to take, you end up becoming more entrenched in the attitude you took when embarking upon it.

Also the invesment made in a belief. We defend our beliefs by rationalising. The Ring was a present. It was his. Poor Sméagol.
OK he couldn't go to Valinor for a rest, mainly because Someone kicked him in, but it all seems a bit unfair. Didn't Gimli end up there? And him not even a Ringbearer.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 23, 2010 11:33
Gimli was an Elf-friend.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 24, 2010 06:12
Yes he was, wasn't he. So why were the elves so special to the Ainur? Was Tuor the only man to get in, if indeed he did? And what sort of place is it that mortals go to when they die such that they might need a rest first? Sounds quite stressful. I hope not for Sméagol's sake.
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Post RE: Gollum as Ringbearer
on: July 24, 2010 11:18
Yes he was, wasn't he. So why were the elves so special to the Ainur? Was Tuor the only man to get in, if indeed he did? And what sort of place is it that mortals go to when they die such that they might need a rest first? Sounds quite stressful. I hope not for Sméagol's sake.


Apparently, the depart beyond the circles of the world. The deal the Elves got was to live as long as creation itself. When that goes, so do they. Afterlife for Men is a different thing altogether.
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