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tarcolan
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Post Old Forest bad?
on: December 19, 2010 11:47
Is it a coincidence that the Old Forest is so close to the Shire? As I understand things the awakened evil is coming from the Barrow-Wights who were there way before the Shire. Are they just a randomly placed outpost of evil? And is that why Tom chose to settle there? Or had he always been there?
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Ilandir
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Post RE: Old Forest bad?
on: December 21, 2010 08:19
The Old Forest was once part of a huge forest that extended along the central part of Middle Earth. Many trees were cut down by the Numenoreans during the Second Age and only those two forests remained.

In The Two Towers, Treebeard tells how in ages past he used to walk the vast areas of the forest right up to where the Old Forest now stands.

The Barrow-Wights have nothing to do with the Old Forest (as far as I'm concerned) except for the fact that they lie close to them. Basically the Barrow Downs consisted of ancient tombs for Kings but once the Witch King took over Angmar early in the Third Age, evil spirits emodied the bodies of the deceased Kings.

The Shire was formed much later, in the middle of the Third Age.

I believe Tom Bombadil had settled there long before any tree was felled or war took place. I think he was just left in peace and protected his own borders in the Old Forest throughout the Ages ...

The idea that the Old Forest is bad is, I think, not to be associated with evil. I guess it should be looked at as the same situation with Fangorn. Having seen many people felling trees, the trees had become harsher and more protective, driving off any unwanted visitors. It definitely wasn't in some sort of allegiance with Mordor (as clearly shown by Tolkien's reaction in a letter when someone thought Old Man Willow was in alliance with Sauron!)
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Hercynian
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Post RE: Old Forest bad?
on: December 22, 2010 04:57
I agree with Ilandir that the trees' bad was not Mordor evil bad. Yes, they'd taken an axing and weren't happy about it. In one of my stories the stupid people say the trees -- when there's enough of them together -- enchant humans, and that's a bad thing, so stay out of the forest; otherwise, you'll be enchanted and not want to come out and be a good citizen.

Tom B seemed to have no trouble with old Willow. He could tell the mean trees to behave themselves and they would. Tolkien was writing this long before the debate started about whether plants had any form of sentience. Somehow he intuited it.

All this once again brings up the idea that we yearn to commune with nature, not just mindlessly dominate and destroy it. When Gildor Inglorion said hobbits are much too dull, part of that dullness was their relative insensitivity to things like forests. But Bilbo and Frodo were exceptional hobbits who had higher sensitivities. Pippin and Merry just barely made muster with Treebeard, an Ent-ity who didn't cotton to tree-oppressors.

I'm still floored by just how nature-loving, nature-aware Tolkien was, a man who probably never saw a true old-growth forest. People go on and on about his longing for the old English countryside of yore and how he recreated the Shire in his works to celebrate it. I'm amazed by how much he did the same, if not more, for a nature he never knew, that Europeans in general haven't known for at least 1,500 years. His Gondor could be written off as Camelot fantasy, his Shire as nostalgia, but his woodland spinnings, his woodland-inhabiting Elves are the truly stellar aspect of his created world, IMHO. What a bold visionary! Even to just talk about malicious trees....

[Edited on 22/12/2010 by Hercynian]
tarcolan
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Post RE: Old Forest bad?
on: December 27, 2010 07:00
I would agree that there was no alliance 'twixt tree and Sauron, and Tom tells the hobbits that it's down to the Numenorians deforesting Arnor. (Did they invent agriculture?) Treebeard however, has no doubt that something of the Great Darkness still lingers there. I see the influence of the Shadow as more vague, supressing the good of heart and encouraging the bad, as it did throughout LOTR. It's notable that only the deep forests in Middle Earth are affected by this malaise. Perhaps it can fester there.
I'm interested in the Witch King's reluctance to get too close to the Grey Havens, as spoken of by Tolkien in later writings. Did the Shire benefit from this shield? This area is pretty important it seems.
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Ereinion
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Post RE: Old Forest bad?
on: January 27, 2011 06:56
I agree that there was no relation between the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs. It's similar to the part with Caradhras:
"I do call it the wind," said Aragorn. "But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he."
"Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name," said Gimli, "long yars ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands."
Eowyn_White_Lady
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Post RE: Old Forest bad?
on: January 29, 2011 02:23
I completely agree with everything everyone's said so far about Old Forest not being with Sauron etc. Something my English professor in my Tolkien class might clear something up a bit, too.

She said that for the longest time while writing, Tolkien intended for the Ents to be bad--not necessarily with Sauron but evil in some way. There's an argument that Old Man Willow is an Ent of kinds so that makes sense. So even though Treebeard ended up ok, that might explain why the Old Forest is a bit nasty.

As to Tom, we in class talked it out to him being a bit of an Ent for Ents. He's a "true master" of his realm--being the Old Forest. So, he's been there for probably as long as his forest has.

The anger the forest has gotten is, like Ilandir said, from them being attacked and felled.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Old Forest bad?
on: March 11, 2012 01:19
The word 'ent' is a peculiar Old English word for the mythical 'giants' they thought to have built huge natural features like The Giant's Causeway and even such mighty works as Stonehenge and Hadrian's Wall.

When the Norsemen brought their tales of evil trolls to this country, the word was often translated as 'giant' which did their reputation no good at all. Tolkien says the ents "grew out of their name" in his mind and although they remain big they are alien rather than scary, and are basically benevolent, although the same cannot be said of the huorns. Yet whatever the huorns and the Old Forest may be, their anger results from the abuse of those who come "hacking and burning", as others have said here.
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