Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Discuss the Books » Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
Author Topic:
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 22, 2011 05:32
I wonder what might have happened at the Sammath Naur if Gollum had not been there. Would the ring still have been destroyed? ... and how?
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 22, 2011 05:45
I'd like to think that Sam would have done it, if not for the good of the world, then simply to save his master from any number of unfortunate fates. Shortly before they reach Mount Doom, Sam has a bit of an inner dialogue with himself about what is going to happen when they get there, and he admits that he really doesn't know, but he also knows how important the quest is. In the end, it is really Sam that sees to it that the quest is completed - it is made very clear that Frodo is at a point where he would never have made it alone. I like to think that he would have had the strength and courage to take it from Frodo, and destroy it. He knows what's at stake, both on a small scale, for Frodo, and on a much bigger scale, for the entire world.
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 07:16
If Gollum hadn't been there, the quest would almost definitely have failed. In the end, the Ring would have been too strong even for Sam to resist. The only way I can see that they maybe would have been able to destroy it would have been that, Sam would have attacked Frodo, totally against his nature, and thrown both him and himself into the chasm. Neither of them could have thrown the Ring into the volcano by choice.
Ilandir
Council Member
Posts: 475
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 07:44
I agree with Morwinyoniel. Both hobbits were at the heart of Mordor and the temptation not to destroy the Ring would have been strong. Free-will wouldn't have been present and the ring would have taken control.
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 09:24
Aww... no other optimists?

I can't imagine Sam attacking Frodo. Even in the heart of Mordor, I can't imagine it happening.

When Frodo is attacked by Shelob and Sam believes him to be dead, the last thing Sam wants to do is leave him, but he takes the ring for the sole purpose of continuing the quest - not out of any personal desire to have it. At this point, we again see Sam having a conversation with himself about what is to be done, and he chooses to take the ring to complete the quest, because he recognizes that if he doesn't, everything - Rivendell, Lothlorien, the Shie - is doomed. Even when Sam rescues Frodo from Cirith Ungol, he is able to give the ring back to Frodo quite easily, knowing full well that Frodo will continue the quest seeking to destroy it. Even though he hesitates, his hesitation is in giving it back to Frodo, not in giving it up. He doesn't want to burden Frodo with the weight of it, but once he sees that Frodo is too consumed by the ring to not be the one to carry it, he returns it. Doing so never seems to bother him at all, exept in that he wishes he could do more to help, and he has both carried and worn the ring in Mordor.

I would still like to believe that for the good of Frodo and the good of Middle Earth, Sam would have been able to succeed where Frodo failed if Gollum had not been there to twist fate otherwise.
Ilandir
Council Member
Posts: 475
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 09:39
I can't imagine Sam attacking Frodo. Even in the heart of Mordor, I can't imagine it happening.

But Sam isn't immune to the power of the Ring - just like everyone else. And we're talking about the Sammath Naur here, the ultimate place where it was created - and where the Ring would be at its most powerful.
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6050
Send Message
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 09:44
Fancy that, a 'What If' thread in the book forum. I'll second the above from asea, I couldn't have put it more eloquently. I'm not sure how it would have ended though. There is still the possibility that Frodo, wearing the Ring, would have been able to evade Sam and make it outside. The Eye would have nabbed him then for sure.
Hangman Helper program
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 10:39
I can't imagine Sam attacking Frodo. Even in the heart of Mordor, I can't imagine it happening.

But Sam isn't immune to the power of the Ring - just like everyone else. And we're talking about the Sammath Naur here, the ultimate place where it was created - and where the Ring would be at its most powerful.

I don't think he's immune to it, but I also don't think it holds as much power over him as it does over other people, simply because he does not have any interest in having it, using it, or gaining power through it. He doesn't ever express any desire for it, and I think that is why, even after wearing it in Mordor, he is able to pretty non-chalantly give it up to Frodo.

In looking at the reactions people have to the ring, we know that different people react to it differently, and are able to resist it in varying degrees. Gandalf says he would fall to it through using it from a desire to do good. In Galadriel's little outburst, she believes that if she took the ring she would use it to be a great Queen. Boromir falls to it because he seeks to use it as a weapon against Mordor. When Faramir speaks with Frodo about it, he says that he would not take it, not even to save Minas Tirith, because he knows it would not have any positive impact. He, like Sam, is not drawn to it or tempted by it as others are, especially once he understands the gravity of the situation. I think that the ring is more of a threat to and holds more power over those who desire it or seek to use it. Sam's attitude towards it is pretty much "Alright then, Mr. Frodo, let's get in there, chuck it in the fire, and go home." He was perfectly content with his life in the Shire, and even after all he has been through, he is perfectly content to return to it; he has no thirst for power or wealth or anything that the ring could give to him. I think that after possessing it for a long stretch of time the circumstances might be different, (After 500 years, I think a lot of people would probably end up just like Gollum) but the "What if?" we're looking at here does not involve Sam carrying the ring any longer than he already has, so I still would hope that, having taken it in Mordor with the intent of destroying it, having given it up without remorse, and having no desire whatsoever to use it, Sam would have been able to complete the quest.

Tarcolan, I was thinking about your point when I initially responded, and I wonder how that part of it would have worked out. Would Sam have been able to find invisible Frodo? (In the film he was leaving footprints, and therefore would have been easier to follow, not sure if that would have been the case) And if he had, would he have been able to take it from him? By all logical argument, Sam is the physically stronger of the two no matter the conditions, but certainly by this point in the quest; Frodo is weak and unarmed, BUT he's also invigorated by Gollum's attempt to take the ring from him, so I suppose the same might happen if Sam tried...

So I still can't say for sure, I can only reiterate my "I would like to believe". Haha.
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6050
Send Message
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 10:54
I was pipped at the post, as 'twere, by Ilandir. I can't accept that the Ring would be able to exert that much influence over Sam, even in that place and with that jeopardy hanging over it. Would the same be true of anyone, with no previous involvement with the Ring?
I think the matter of ownership is important here, as was discussed some time ago regarding how many times Frodo used the Ring in the Shire, when it was stated that it was ownership which was more important. Sam didn't take the Ring to own it and although it tried to influence him his plain hobbit sense won through. If the Ring could have affected anyone at Sammath Naur it would give it and therefore Sauron absolute power. I just can't accept that. Anyway Sam is the best, so there.
Hangman Helper program
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 11:12
Sam didn't take the Ring to own it and although it tried to influence him his plain hobbit sense won through.


Thank you for summing up my point in one sentence. Hahaha. Brevity has never been my strong suit, especially when discussing literature...
Ilandir
Council Member
Posts: 475
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 23, 2011 10:47
Sam didn't take the Ring to own it and although it tried to influence him his plain hobbit sense won through.

Once again, that was just on the borders of Mordor. Within Sauron's realm, the Ring was at home (so to speak). And I don't think it's a case of liking Sam and therefore making him able to control the Ring's temptation. True, he was a strong character - much more than others - but still, the Ring was even more powerful ... and it would have overcome him. It was pure evil.

If it wouldn't have been able to do that (i.e. overcome him), that would defeat the whole purpose of 'The Lord of the Rings' ...

[Edited on 24/9/2011 by Ilandir]
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 05:13

If it wouldn't have been able to do that (i.e. overcome him), that would defeat the whole purpose of 'The Lord of the Rings' ...


I don't think it would defeat the purpose. There are plenty of people in the story that we see resist the ring, just as there are many people we see fall to it. And we see varying degrees of resistance. We see people who are tempted, but ultimately refuse it, we see people who are tempted to the point of their own fall, but realize their folly before the end, and we see people who do not appear to be tempted at all. And just to throw everything for a loop, we've got Tom Bombadil who is not affected by it in any way whatsoever. I think whichever camp you fall into would be magnified if you were standing in the heart of Mount Doom, but even Elrond, after Isildur took the ring, insisted that it be destroyed. Would it had been different if the ring had physically been in Elrond's hands? Another "What if" tangent, but he never shows any interest in having or using the ring either.

I don't think the ring's power is to be doubted, after we see what Sauron created in the Nazgul, and how much land he destroyed in his campaign against Eriador. Yes, he eventually retreated to Mordor, but he also burnt down most of the forests, and had all the allied forces cut off from each other. His lieutenant, who is controlled by the ring, destroys all the remaining Northern kingdoms, and corrupts many who seek the ring, possess it, or aim to use it against him. And I think the real danger of the ring when it is out of Sauron's hands is falling to the temptation to use it, or of course, the risk of it returning to him.

I would say that it would be a very sad story indeed if there were no force of good that could withstand the potential to be corrupted. If the ring was impossible to destroy, you've created an unbeatable force of evil, and I don't know that Sauron is quite on that level, terrible though he may be.
Ilandir
Council Member
Posts: 475
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 06:20
There are plenty of people in the story that we see resist the ring

True, but they're always far away from it's birth place ... and the circumstances would have been very different.

but even Elrond, after Isildur took the ring, insisted that it be destroyed. Would it had been different if the ring had physically been in Elrond's hands?

No, he probably would have done like Isildur ... at least that's how I see it.

I would say that it would be a very sad story indeed if there were no force of good that could withstand the potential to be corrupted. If the ring was impossible to destroy, you've created an unbeatable force of evil, and I don't know that Sauron is quite on that level, terrible though he may be.

Well, as a matter of fact, if you see it that way, the good side doesn't destroy the Ring in the end. It's too powerful to control and even when Gollum takes it, it has to be fate (i.e. Iluvatar) to step in and make him fall into the fire. Sure, Frodo brought it there and he succeeded, but he didn't destroy it himself.
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
Huin
Council Member
Posts: 803
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 07:59
Interesting topic. I think people on both sides of the Samwise issue make good points, but my inclination is to rewind to the point where he would try and take the ring from Frodo if such were the case:

I don't think Sam would succeed in taking the ring, whether he wanted to or not. Frodo is now wearing the ring in the place where it's at the height of its power. He may not be very strong, and on top of that he's been greatly weakened, but I think the ring would give even him enough power and energy to resist an attempt by Sam to take it. My sense is that Gollum was only able to reclaim it briefly because he had that obsessed, maddened strength, and its power to lure him was probably what made him able to locate it and then bite Frodo's invisible finger off.

I think Frodo would have traipsed around with the Ring for all of half an hour, impervious to any attempt by Sam to stop him, before the Ringwraiths arrived on the scene and brought him back to Sauron.
Image ImageRealm of Vairë, Corrupted faction
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6050
Send Message
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 10:16
Against my wish I'm afraid I have to agree, Huin. Maybe Sam could have rushed at where Frodo was, taking them both over the edge but I'm not convinced he would succeed. Possible though, and I'm still pretty sure he would have wanted to destroy it.

Would the other Ringbearers be able to destroy it? Galadriel obviously didn't trust herself even though she'd rejected it once. Gandalf was scared of it and I doubt Elrond's ability to resist. But Sam isn't one of the wise and uniquely in the story he is never really tempted or worried about being tempted. Remember Faramir didn't even want to see it for fear of it.

I'm not happy with the whole 'intervening god' idea, Ilandir. At least not in such a petty way as to trip Gollum up. For me it spoils the story. I'd always thought it was the Ring itself, or it's effect on Gollum, which had caused him to slip. Obsession and its satisaction leading to a moment of manic carelessness?
Hangman Helper program
Pimpernel_Took
Council Member
Posts: 106
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 11:43
I don't think Sam would have had the physical strength to get the ring from Frodo and destroy it.

BUT:
Remember Bilbo? Bilbo, Sam and Tom Bombadil were the only ones who ever gave the ring up by free will.

Sam never claimed the ring to be his own, nor did Bombadil. But Bilbo claimed it to be his. And so Gandalf had to persuade Bilbo to give up the ring, however, he did not use "magic" to make Bilbo do it. Not that I think that some of Gandalf's "magic" would be able to make the ring's power over Bilbo less great.

So why wouldn't Frodo destroy the ring freewill? Would Frodo have thrown the ring into the chasm if Sam had reasoned with him as Gandalf did with Bilbo?



[Edited on 24/9/2011 by Pimpernel_Took]
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 04:37
Against my wish I'm afraid I have to agree, Huin. Maybe Sam could have rushed at where Frodo was, taking them both over the edge but I'm not convinced he would succeed. Possible though, and I'm still pretty sure he would have wanted to destroy it.

That's where it gets dicey - because while I very much believe Sam would have wanted to destroy it, and would have been able to do so, I don't know that he would be able to bring himself to use violence against Frodo to get it back. But on the other hand, getting it away from Frodo would also be saving Frodo's life, and I'm sure that Sam would do everything in his power to do that.
Huin
Council Member
Posts: 803
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 05:10
Tarcolan, I've thought that the fears of Gandalf, Galadriel and to some extent Faramir had to do with their power: they are used to being powerful people. Sam has never been conditioned by that sort of background (though of course, anyone from any background can be power-hungry).

Pimpernel, I'd like to think Frodo is a reasonable fellow, but the situation where Gandalf reasoned with Bilbo was far from Mordor: in the heart of that realm, where both Sam and Frodo are distraught and near death, reason would be harder to speak and to heed.
Image ImageRealm of Vairë, Corrupted faction
Ilandir
Council Member
Posts: 475
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 10:27
I'm not happy with the whole 'intervening god' idea, Ilandir.

Well, Tolkien himself stated it in one of his letters
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
Huin
Council Member
Posts: 803
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 24, 2011 10:44
This brings up another interesting but possibly unanswerable point:

Tolkien was evidently a faithful Catholic. How often did his answers refer back to the one deity he believed in (represented here in Eru), and how often were they simply a deus ex machina that he fell back on when he had other answer at the ready?
Image ImageRealm of Vairë, Corrupted faction
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 25, 2011 04:43
Oddly enough, Tolkien himself discusses "what if" at Mount Doom, in a letter to Eilleen Elgar in 1963. It is a long piece, but focuses on the love as a force ... so presumably Eru ... and its influence on Gollum had it not been earlier interrupted by Sam. Definitely worth reading.

I certainly get the impression that Tolkien saw the power of unconditional love at work in the Sammath Naur.
asea_aranion
Council Member
Posts: 533
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 26, 2011 03:57
I was unable to find the original text of letter #246, which you've referenced here, but I was able to find a summary of it. The part that is relevant to our discussion is as follows:

"Tolkien thought that between repentance and love for Frodo on one hand and the Ring on the other, Gollum would have tried to satisfy both in some queer twisted and pitiable way. He would have stolen or used violence to take the Ring, but having satisfied "possession" he would then for Frodo’s sake have voluntarily cast himself into the fire. The effect of a partial regeneration by love would have given Gollum a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived Sauron's evil, realized that he did not have the power to use it in Sauron's despite, and realized that the only way to hurt Sauron would have been to destroy the Ring and himself – which would also be the greatest service to Frodo. In the story Frodo actually claims the Ring and he would have had the revelation of Gollum outlined above, if he had had the time, and cast himself into the fire."

So Tolkien's belief is that, had Gollum not been there, Frodo would have sacrificed himself to destroy the ring, throwing himself into the fires and suffering the same fate that Gollum did.
Huin
Council Member
Posts: 803
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 27, 2011 05:06
That's quite interesting, and something I never thought of, although after reading it it seems obvious. Certainly Gollum would perceive Sauron quite profoundly, after donning the Ring in the middle of Mordor.
Image ImageRealm of Vairë, Corrupted faction
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6050
Send Message
Post RE: Crisis at the Cracks of Doom
on: September 28, 2011 11:47
It is a long piece, but focuses on the love as a force ... so presumably Eru ... and its influence on Gollum had it not been earlier interrupted by Sam

I'm confused now. Does this refer to a particular incident? It seems to suggest that it's all Sam's fault; that if he had shown compassion toward Gollum he would have taken the plunge voluntarily. I can't see how the ending as written demonstrates or even indicates the presence of unconditional love, except perhaps that of Sam for his master. Why did Tolkien opt for this version? I read it aged 12 and thought then that it was a bit weak, and now to find that in effect the quest failed at the last, requiring divine intervention, is a little galling.

One of the most memorable lines in the book to me is when Sauron realises the magnitude of his folly. It is the absence of love which ensures that evil can never win, at least that is the message I understood from the book. Hate is a poor ideology, it is blinding, which is why no-one is really terrorised by terrorists. So what is Tolkien's message here? That Eru will come to the rescue? I'm confused.
Hangman Helper program
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: June 05, 2014 12:32
There is certainly a suggestion of Divine Intervention. In my view it was absolutely necessary, as it was made clear from the start that nobody, elf, maia or mortal, could have let the ring go voluntarily. Something else would have to happen. It certainly is not Sam's fault. Sam, Frodo and Gollum have facilitated the ring's journey to Mount Doom through inner struggles of self-interest v loyalty, and perhaps Tolkien is suggesting here that all we do simply facilitates some greater Plan. (Father, forgive them! They know not what they do) Thus, if we have done our utmost, we cannot be said to have failed.
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: June 05, 2014 01:34
Personally, I consider the often (it seems) overlooked toughness of the Hobbits, belied by their outward appearance of the exact opposite, which is decisive. They alone and NO one else could have accomplished the quest.

Point one: Frodo has to endure the splinter of the Morgul blade for - help me here - I think 17 days. And - ditto - I believe Gandalf tells him that many strong men of the Big Folk (including Aragorn??) would not have been able to resist the effects of this splinter nearly as long as he did.

Point two: Gollum had the One Ring for close to 500 years - BUT - did not turn into a wraith! I have speculated elsewhere in CoE (and speculation it remains) that NONE of the nine Ring-Wraiths held their ring for much more than 200 years before becoming a wraith.

Point three: don't ask me where I read this, but "it is written" that when Gollum was tortured in Barad-Dur to get all possible information out of him, Sauron sensed that there was something in Gollum that was ULTIMATELY indomitable even by him (Sauron), beyond his power while Gollum lived, only to be overcome by Gollum's death and nothing else.

In that sense, since there was no Elf, no (especially) lordly man, ditto Dwarf, in Sammath Naur, but THREE of these indomitable, but massively underestimated beings, was the reason that Sauron was utterly doomed - it would have happened as in the book, or in some other way - but it WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

(cough, cough, time to head off to other threads)
Image
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: June 06, 2014 12:30
Well said! Gandalf sensed these special hobbit traits long before and took a special interest in The Shire. Once he knew Bilbo had a magic ring, his mission became clearer.
Lord_Sauron
Council Member
Posts: 7389
Send Message
Post
on: June 06, 2014 01:33
I read somewhere (can't remember at this very moment) that if Gollum was not present at Mt Doom, either Frodo would have jumped into Mt Doom sacrificing himself to save Middle Earth or that the Nazgul would come and pledge their allegiance falsely to him only to get Frodo away from Mt Doom and hold him until Sauron comes out of Barad-dur to retrieve his Ring.

One question is that if Eru did interfere and push Gollum into Mt Doom how come he didn't push Isildur into Mt Doom?.



This is what I read, it is a paragraph out of Tolkien's Letter 246 written in September 1963

When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one
hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to
deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast
himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an
interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at
once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real
lordship of the Ring.


They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn.


[Edited on 06/06/2014 by Lord_Sauron]
Cenor
Council Member
Posts: 5267
Send Message
Post
on: June 06, 2014 08:26
Yes I read that also. The Ringwraiths would entice Frodo out then Sauron would take the Ring for his own. Frodo although strong enough to overpower the Ringwraiths with the Ring was not strong enough to overpower the Dark Lord
Image "Every good pirate has an alias" Felix glanced down, looking at contraption around the stump of his wrist. "Hook," he answered. "My name will be Hook."
dabenj19
Council Member
Posts: 9
Send Message
Post
on: June 09, 2014 01:11
if gollum wasnt there then saroun would have regained all power and would try and this time be triumphant in taking over all of middle earth
benji+middle-earth= CRAZY!
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email