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tarcolan
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Post Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 07, 2011 11:03
We only hear of one murder in LOTR, that of Déagol. It seems to me this was atypical. Can anyone think of any other deliberate acts of murder in the books, and which was the first? I'm not counting the ship burning as the deaths caused were not really in Middle Earth.
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LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 07, 2011 05:56
Lotho Sackville-Baggins was murdered by Wormtongue, according to Saruman in the "Scouring of the Shire."

Do orcs count? They're always murdering each other.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 08, 2011 02:09
Those are the only ones that we get to know of. Also, it is hinted somewhere (I cannot check the reference right now) that someone "helped" Lalia Clayhanger, the widow of Thain Fortinbras II, fall down the stairs and break her neck.

The "good" characters in the book are so noble and civilised, regardless of their social status, that they won't descend to something as despicable as murder. But, who knows what happens elsewhere in Middle-earth?
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 08, 2011 02:28
There was also the killing/murder of Fram by Dwarves (at least I don't recall any armies being mentioned, and it was definitely pre-planned).

I don't think we'll ever find out who the first victim of murder in Middle-earth was, but I guess we can safely assume the culprits (Morgoth and his minions). Terribly unoriginal, I know.
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tarcolan
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 08, 2011 02:50
No I don't count orcs, Lady Beruthiel, they were just naturally murderous. Nor do I count Túrin's accidental killing of Beleg. So far I've only found Tuor's murder of Maeglin. Yes he was a traitor and they were under attack so I suppose it can be excused. I can't find any others yet apart from the killing of Eärendil's people by the sons of Fëanor. But that isn't the first is it?

And all this 'cos my mum listens to murder mystery audiobooks and it's driving me round the bend. Awful stuff!
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~nólemë~
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 08, 2011 10:42
Well, if you're counting kinslayings, there's always the Second Kinslaying and the Sacking of Doriath, and the murder of Thingol by Dwarves. I wasn't sure whether or not to include these, because I'm not sure if it qualifies as pre-planned murder when you're reacting purely on impulse (the last example, and the same would go for Eöl throwing his poisoned javelin at Maeglin).
I'd definitely not include Tuor, because it was defence of his son and wife. On the other hand, Maeglin *was* about to kill the child he hated, which would in my eyes qualify as attempt at murder as it was unwarranted.
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tarcolan
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 09, 2011 10:47
OK nólemë I have to agree. It's all getting a bit legalistic and complicated isn't it? So not random acts of battle, involuntary or aggravated manslaughter, or acts of passion. Which leaves premeditated, cold-blooded one-on-one murder. That rules out Gollum and to tell the truth leaves just the ones mentioned previously of suspected hobbit on hobbit and dwarfs on man so far. (I don't count Wormtongue as he was under the influence, so to speak.) Hard to believe in such a large mythology.
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LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 15, 2011 06:03
Well, you could define murder as unjustified killing.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 16, 2011 09:15
And some would say all killing is unjustified, Moses for example. Shall we include Thingol's killing? I suppose so in which case it's the first.
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Nolimon
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 20, 2011 04:58
You seem to forget about Turin and Brandir - that to me is the most unjustified killing in the legendarium, even the very instrument of the murder said so.

As for the first, if memory serves, that was Finwe's death at the hands of Morgoth. Btw, what about the human sacrifices during Numenor's final years? Also when Meadhros and Maglor slew the guards to steal the remaining Silmarils; presumably those were elves too.
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 20, 2011 06:48
I believe the original poster wanted 'murders in Middle-earth', which rules out Númenor and Valinor. That's why noone spoke about those.

IMO, to be recognized as murder, a deed has to be planned long in advance. I wouldn't call killings in a fit of rage (Túrin, Eöl's attempt) that, although Maedhros's and Maglor's slaying of the guards would qualify as one in my opinion.
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tarcolan
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 20, 2011 01:52
Yes I'd go with Maedhros's and Maglor's slaying of the guards but was that the first? I don't count anything that Túrin did, he was bewitched by the dragon and the curse on Húrin. Anyway you can't believe anything a sword says can you?
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Nolimon
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: November 20, 2011 06:30
Legalities aside, in my humble opinion, state of emotion should not excuse one from his crime; state of mind, yes, but not state of emotion. The act of killing is by and large fueled by emotion; whether anger, hatred, jealousy, greed, even desire for revenge. Even killing in self-defense is fueled by emotion, fear - fear of being harmed. I'm certain there is no question on that; it is in the justification of the act that we disagree.

If one would excuse Eöl's attempt as simply as an act of passion, then what of Turgon's? Though it was judicial in nature, nonetheless we cannot rule out simple revenge for his sister's death, cold and pre-meditated, which we may say as understandable. It was certainly the first example of "judicial killing" in the texts. Then there's Thingol's desire to do away with Beren out of disdain and perhaps fear, and while he did not do so directly, his intentions bear this out quite plainly. Also, when Castamir the Usurper had Ornendil son of Eldacar beheaded (described as cruel and unnecessary even in a time of war, not least in that they were close relatives), that to me was judicial murder plain and simple.

As for Túrin, while he was bewitched, he was not without free will. He spared Mim, as well as Men of questionable character, when he could have killed out of necessity. And yet he strike Brandir, lame and weaponless, out of horror and fury. And at that point the dragon's spell was already lifted, he was simply in denial and "killed the messenger" as it were. But above all, he had a choice, whether to strike or not; but he did, fueled simply by emotion. Btw, Gurthang (despite the un-Elvish sounding name, to me) is an elven blade, so why would you not believe what it said? Well, anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.

On a side note, what about Dorlas' attempt against Brandir? Had he succeeded that would not only be murder but also treason and regicide (as Brandir was his rightful lord) don't you think? It's also telling that it was Dorlas' wife who later tattled Brandir to Turin in the final encounter. What a pair.
Cressida
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: February 16, 2012 03:36
No I don't count orcs, Lady Beruthiel, they were just naturally murderous. Nor do I count Túrin's accidental killing of Beleg. So far I've only found Tuor's murder of Maeglin. Yes he was a traitor and they were under attack so I suppose it can be excused.

From the Silmarillion version, I got the impression that was more of an execution than a murder. But I know there are multiple versions of that story, so others might differ there.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Murder in Middle Earth
on: February 18, 2012 05:56
During the Kin-strife, Castamir the Usurper murdered Ornendil, the eldest son and heir of Eldacar. This act was evil, premeditated,and done for personal gain (the Kingship of Gondor).
cirdaneth
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on: June 02, 2014 12:36
Part of the difficulty here is that we come from different countries with different laws and different views. Here in the UK I believe we simply have murder and manslaughter, the latter often being accidental but due to the killers carelessness or neglect. The difference lies in the grounds for the defence. Other countries have degrees of murder, crimes of passion, etc.
Gandolorin
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on: June 04, 2014 12:02
Just a gut feeling:

if we exclude warfare, insanity and self-defense (the last being the most iffy), practically no killing in the whole legendarium (and just forget the Silmarillion!) seems to qualify as cold-blooded, premeditated, no-matter-what murder.

And insanity seems to be the biggest basket into which to pitch excuses.
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