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starofdunedain
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Post What happened to the dragons?
on: June 18, 2012 05:53
It says in the appendices of LotR that Smaug came down from the wastelands beyond the Grey Mountains and that he was one of the strongest of his kind. But what about the other dragons? Did they just stay there during the War of the Ring or did the come down to attack the Lonely Mountain and Dale? We know other places were under attack such as Mirkwood, Lothlorien, and Dale though it's only briefly mentioned, but were they just overrun by orcs and trolls or were the dragons involved at all?
What about after the war? There was a lot of work to do repairing damage and driving off invaders, but did they ever have trouble from the remaining dragons?
Erucenindë
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: June 18, 2012 09:45
I'm not an expert or anything, but I don't remember anything being mentioned about dragons more than just Smaug. I don't know if anything was written about them in HoME or not, but I can't recall Tolkien saying anything more about them. I do wonder, though, what these dragons did? There had to be more than just Smaug, although most likely few. Perhaps they just stayed in their areas and nothing more.
Latarina15
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: June 18, 2012 10:33
i have read most of the silmarilion and it talkes about the father of dragons in that. he was killed in the silmarilion but so far it doesnt mention other dragons. in the Lord of the Rings i do remember that in the council of elrond Gandalf i think mentiones that "not even in the black dragon from the north does the old fire burn strong eanough to destroy the ring" i know that doesnt answer the question really but thats all i can think of about the dragons.
starofdunedain
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: June 18, 2012 11:12
Sorry, I should have put up the quotes first. In the appendices about Durin's folk it mentions
Do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's folk. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor

As well as, (after Thrain finds the Arkenstone)
But there were dragons in the waste beyond; and after many years they became strong again and multiplied, and they made war on the dwarves and plundered their works

Smaug, the Golden greatest of the dragons in his day,

From these quotes I'm assuming both before the death of Smaug and during the War of the Ring there were still dragons in the Norther wastes although they did not come down often until the rise of Sauron.
I was just wondering if the dragons ever continued to give Dale more trouble after the fall of Sauron.
LegolasXXXXX
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: July 27, 2012 01:13
well, star, it looks as if there might have been dragons involved in the battles in Eriador, during the War of the Ring. However, as for the most part, during the War of the Ring it is mentioned, (I forgot where so don't quote me), that dragons mostly stayed to the north and west of Middle-Earth...and didn't involve themselves in the fighting...but there still were some around after the War of the Ring.
Lindarielwen, I hope that wherever you are it is incredible and filled with all the things that you love. Looking forward to our next meeting.
Huin
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: July 27, 2012 03:01
I can't remember what passages I formed this impression on--probably the ones quoted 2 posts up, and maybe a couple more from somewhere--but it seems to me that aside from Smaug most remaining dragons were (relatively) small and weak by the Third Age.* Not that a relatively-smal-and-weak dragon wouldn't still present significant problems for people.

*I like to think this has something to do with Melkor's banishment from Arda, and his will/power therein decreasing.
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LegolasXXXXX
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: July 27, 2012 10:47
That would probably be it, huin...Melkor was in the Void, which we don't know exactly where that is, but her probably didn't have any influence there anymore...
Lindarielwen, I hope that wherever you are it is incredible and filled with all the things that you love. Looking forward to our next meeting.
sunrain
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: November 26, 2012 05:26
Are the fell riders the nazgul ride on be considered dragons or just something similar?
tarcolan
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: November 28, 2012 02:41
The fell beasts aren't dragons but they may well have been bred from similar stock. I think it's generally accepted that the Urulóki were real animals and not Maiar, bred by Melkor from some sort of reptile like a Komodo. Presumably these were not native to the northern lands, being cold-blooded, which would explain why Glaurung was the first that was ever seen.
Animals and plants which are bred have to be constantly selected for; the best grain is used for next year's crop, the wooliest, fattest sheep bred on. Left to their own devices the dragons would get weaker and smaller, eventually devolving to the lizard-like worms they came from.
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: November 28, 2012 03:14
I think it's generally accepted that the Urulóki were real animals and not Maiar, bred by Melkor from some sort of reptile like a Komodo.


I'm not sure I'd say it's a generally accepted theory. I for one don't support it (and so do some others I know), and the 'Maiar' explanation sounds quite plausible to me. I have not been paying the dragons and other creatures of evil much thought, but for me the 'animal' status raises more questions than seeing them as Maiar, i.e. in my view spirits bound permanently to a hideous form devised by Morgoth, not unlike the permanent embodiment of the Wizards for the duration of their task. The 'animal' status would link these creatures to Yavanna for me, and that's something I can't quite imagine, unless Morgoth was mutilating birds and worms on a large scale. Also, the 'spirit' status nicely explains the ability to speak and in some, foresee. It is at one point literally said of Glaurung that the 'spirit in him' spoke. (I think it's in the Sil. when he faces Túrin at Nargothrond.) My bet would, for all the speaking creatures including dragons, be on 'Maiar'. Or some other, unknown, spiritual order.
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tarcolan
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: November 28, 2012 05:24
Well Tolkien refutes my theory that dragons would revert to ordinary lizards (letter 144), as they are still around today, although not so 'hot'. I also have to agree it isn't generally assumed they are plain animals. There's no evidence one way or the other. I must admit I had always assumed they were Maiar because they could speak but I had to accept they might be animals as they were bred by Melkor. However, Ungoliant was a Maia and bred other great spiders. If your theory that all speaking animals are spirits is correct then Roäc the crow is one, and presumably the fox although it only thinks. Tolkien also says in one letter that the fell beasts derived from some sort of prehistoric throwback like a pterodactyillic creature. so perhaps the dragons had the same origin.

As to dragon-animals as creations of Yavanna being distasteful, think of the Orcs, bred from Elves. The original creatures that dragons were bred from were probably as friendly and innocent as Komodo dragons. Wolves also can be quite nasty I've heard.
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: December 05, 2012 04:43
There's no evidence one way or the other.


Precisely - or more exactly, Tolkien offers so many versions on most things that there's no right or wrong in this debate. I believe dragons are Maiar, you believe they are beasts taught speech. With Tolkien himself stating things like that the Maiar could embody themselves into flowers, and that Orcs may well originate from beasts shaped to resemble the Children... I'd say all guesses are fair enough.
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tarcolan
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: December 05, 2012 05:33
Dragons were probably one of the things Tolkien regretted including in the Hobbit, and their absence from LOTR is notable, brushed under the Northern carpet. One way out of this is to assume that the Maiar could either create a form for themselves or inhabit an already existing creature. Although this is a bit disturbing it allows some dragons, or any other intelligent animal, to be Maiar. However, I'd have to say that all animals are capable of speech. Gwaihir knew where Gandalf was and I don't think Radagast told him in person. Chatty moths perhaps?
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Leoflic_Nightleaf
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Post Re: What happened to the dragons?
on: December 05, 2012 06:09
I agree with you tarcolan . Though i do wish there were more dragons lol. FUS-RO-DAH!
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