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tarcolan
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Post Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 13, 2012 11:38
A timely question. Bilbo always denies that he's a thief or burglar, as well he might, both in The Hobbit and LOTR. What do we think?
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Erucenindë
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 14, 2012 12:55
He is called a "thief" and a "burglar" repeatedly by Gandalf and the dwarves in the Hobbit. But whether that makes him one?

I am rereading the Hobbit and I am only half way through, so I don't know about the rest of the book but I am trying to remember if he "stole" anything in the beginning. You could consider that he stole the Ring, since it clearly belonged to Gollum. Just a thought.
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 14, 2012 06:09
I do not think Bilbo is a thief, though that opinion is probably in the eye of the beholder. To the dwarves it was like Bilbo was a thief, and maybe he was, but I think he was not. In the eyes of Smaug, Bilbo was a thief, but was Smaug really the rightful owner of the things? So would it really be stealing? He 'stole' the dwarves from their cativity by the elves, but the dwarves did not deserved to be imprisoned and therefor one might say that they were not 'stolen'. Bilbo did not steal the ring from Gollum, he found it on the ground, and wanted to keep it. Gollum thought it was stealing, but Bilbo jsut thought it was his because he found it.

What I am trying to say is that the title 'thief', is a debateble one and is often though in the minds of the people he 'stole' from. It is also possible that it was just an affectionate nickname that the dwarves gave to him.
starofdunedain
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 14, 2012 10:09
I think he was a thief, don't forget he pinched the food from the elves, and some more from unsuspecting people along the river. Minor things compared to stealing dragon treasure and he did it out of necessity but it's still thieving none the less. He's an honest thief at least. He gave the elf king (Thranduil, although not named) a necklace in payment for the food and wine he stole.
Erucenindë
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 14, 2012 09:34
^ Indeed you are right, star. I was reading the next chapter in the Hobbit last night and Bilbo was stealing food and keys and such from the elves. He was, technically speaking, stealing.
Huin
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 16, 2012 04:17
The Arkenstone... Thorin specifically said that that was the only part of the treasure he reserved for himself, and Bilbo withheld it deliberately (never mind using it as a bargaining chip later). Secreting somebody's cherished family heirloom away strikes me as a certain kind of thievery.
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Aragorn16Estel
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 17, 2012 04:14
Hmmm, well I guess he was a theif, but an honest one, he never stole for greed or lust etc. Only to survive and help. So yes he is a theif of a sort.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. - Psalm 23
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 19, 2012 07:40
I agree with you, Huin, that taking the Arkenstone, knowing that Thorin only wanted that part of the treasure, made Bilbo a thief.


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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 20, 2012 09:22
On three different occasions he took things that he did not own, The Ring, some of Smaug's treasure, and the Arkenstone. The Ring he found lying loose, the merchandise he took from Smaug was only the Dragon's by theft and was taken only to prove that he could reach the Dragon's hoard, and the Arkenstone he was willing to have named as his share of the treasure, so I'd not consider him to be a thief.
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 20, 2012 06:31
But Bilbo knew that Thorin Oakenshield wanted only the Arkenstone.

Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it, drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes and put it in his deepest pocket. "Now I am a burlgar indeed!" thought he.

By his own admission he has stolen it.



A star shines upon the hour of our meeting
My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
Erucenindë
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 20, 2012 08:56
And don't forget he stole food and stuff on more than one occasion. Maybe out of necessity but still he did steal it.
tarcolan
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 21, 2012 01:51
In case you were wondering, this topic has a reply ratio of 15%.
Nobody's mentioned the first transgression yet, not even Erucenindë who is reading it as I speak (type).
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starofdunedain
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 21, 2012 11:54
The pick-pocketing from the trolls? He did manage to lift the key out didn't he?
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 22, 2012 02:20
oh ya he did steal the key from the trolls...well I might be reading it but I still forget details sometimes lol! Like the trolls... thats a duh moment for me!!
tarcolan
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 22, 2012 04:39
The key was on the ground and he just put it in his pocket. First though, he lifted William's purse, which complained. It seems like he wanted to live up to the Dwarves' expectations of him as a thief, for some reason. Not much of an excuse though. Maybe he kept the purse, we don't know.
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 22, 2012 09:28
Once again in robbing a Troll he's not taking anything that the troll acquired legitimately
tarcolan
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 23, 2012 02:31
Are you suggesting that it's OK to thieve from thieves? Anyway we don't know what was in the purse. It may even have had a picture of William's dear mother in it! At the least Bilbo is what you'd call light-fingered.
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Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 23, 2012 09:44
I wonder if Gandalf had some foresight because he said Bilbo was a burglar or he will be when the time comes. He says something like that in the first chapter
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 24, 2012 07:09
Yes, Lord_Sauron, Gandalf did say that Bilbo was a burglar or will be when the time comes in the first chapter. Gandalf chose wisely in selecting Bilbo to be part of the company because he knew Bilbo had a lot more in him than any could guess and more than Bilbo himself knew. Gandalf had foresight in knowing that Bilbo would be an asset to the company. After all, Bilbo was a bit Tookish.







A star shines upon the hour of our meeting
My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 24, 2012 02:06
Now here's something interesting to chew over. The definition of theft in England includes "Intention to permanently deprive the owner of its use" i.e. treating property as if it belongs to the accused, rather than the owner.

It must also have been "dishonestly acquired" There are three circumstances when the accused is deemed to have been acting honestly. These are 1). a belief in a legal claim of right. 2). a belief that the owner would have consented. 3). a belief the owner could not be found.

That should keep us all going for a while.
sunrain
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: November 26, 2012 05:23
I don't think Bilbo was a thief, rather throughout the book he was deemed rather useless and was questioned as to why he was there..(good thing he was!!) It seemed as if they company's views of him where quite askew giving reason to believe they were wrong with calling him a thief
He was merely someone trying to do the best in the circumstance he was in..
Cillendor
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 08, 2013 11:31
I think it is in Unfinished Tales where the thief thing comes from. It's an excerpt from Return of the King in which Gandalf is explaining to the four Hobbits in Gondor his side of Bilbo's tale. After all, The Hobbit is only told from Bilbo's perspective, so he doesn't really know what the other characters are thinking.

Gandalf knew that the Dwarves of Ered Luin (where Thorin was living) thought the Hobbits were stupid, simple people. Consequently, anything made of metal or jewels that they possessed must have been stolen from the more skillful Dwarves. Since Bilbo was wealthy for Hobbit standards, Gandalf knew that Thorin would easily believe that Bilbo was a thief. Also, saying he was a thief would convince the Dwarves to take him on their quest, which they did NOT do with any fondness. Thorin's reluctance to accept Bilbo on the quest in The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey is actually very close to what Tolkien wrote in this extra material.

Bilbo was obviously not a thief from the outset, but by the end he became one, just as Gandalf predicted.
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 08, 2013 04:12
The closest Bilbo comes to real thieving for me is when he tries to steal William's purse.
As for Thranduil's food, he only pilfers it to survive, and offers payment for it when he acquires the means.
As for the Arkenstone, it was taken in good faith as Bilbo's share of treasure, and later on I had a feeling that he just didn't know how to surrender it without Thorin ripping his head off. When he gives the Arkenstone to Bard & co., it's a somewhat shady area, but as he relinquishes his right to the rest of the treasure, I suppose it's not theft after all: he *is* basically giving the stone to Thorin, because he rightly felt the others would offer it to the Dwarf in exchange for Bilbo's share of treasure.
As for nicking the cup from Smaug - I would not classify that as stealing, but rather as retrieval of stolen possessions to their rightful owners. Stealing from a thief to return a thing to its rightful owner is justice for me, not theft.
As for taking Gollum's Ring, in the book he merely found it; by the time he discovered the Ring was Gollum's, he also knew that Gollum intended to use it to murder him, and could well guess that that was what the Ring had so far been used for. I do not consider it theft not to give a dangerous weapon back to a crazed, murderous creature.

To sum it up, Bilbo gets close to a thief on one or two occassions, but he remains an honest person with good intentions. So, not a thief for me by a margin.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
starofdunedain
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 19, 2013 07:22
I guess you can write off stealing food out of necessity but when they were floating down the river he stole "a loaf, a leather bottle of wine, and a pie that did not belong to him'. As far as I know he never paid back those people for the food he stole.
And nowadays if someone did that they would be called a thief at least and it would be punishable regardless of how hungry they might have been.
HistoryRepeating
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 19, 2013 02:25
Bilbo may not have been a thief when he started out, but by the end of the book he certainly had become one. Whether his keeping the Arkenstone is thievery or not is perhaps debatable, but it cannot be denied that he tried to steal the purse from the trolls (I never understood why he did that in the first place), and he did steal food. No matter the circumstances, the latter two make him a thief, even if the theft of food may look justifiable.

As Starofdunedain says, even nowadays, theft of food, no matter the reason, can and will be prosecuted. It has always been considered a crime, and in the past might have been punished quite severely.
tarcolan
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 20, 2013 12:42
You would certainly get transported or hanged for stealing bread to feed your family back in the bad old days, or was it only yesterday? That is a different discussion though. Let's look at the Arkenstone. When Bilbo lifted it there was no question of him using it in any negotiations. He rationalised it by telling himself that it could stand for his share of the treasure. Similarly he rationalised the purse theft as necessary to convince the dwarves of his worth.

Some of you may have already guessed that my reason for posting this subject is to discuss why on earth Tolkien would write a children's story in which the hero is a burglar. What possessed him? Especially as said burglar seems to have done very well out of it in the end. Such a story would be rejected for publication today, so what made him do it? Remember this tale was not planned in advance, he just started writing it as a story to tell his children.
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 20, 2013 11:30
That such a tale as The Hobbit would be rejected by publishers today, is a sign of the times we live in, I believe. Children's stories are becoming very sanitisied. Why that is, I do not know.
starofdunedain
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 20, 2013 11:29
It's because parents have become overly paranoid and believe it's things like this that are responsible for their 'kids' growing up to be thieves and drug users which is of course not true.
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 28, 2013 09:53
My first reaction would be no, he wasn't a thief. I always saw him to be quite caught up in the adventure, and didn't like being called a burglar. And Gollum always called him a thief, but Bilbo found the Ring on the ground, he didn't explicitly take it from Gollum.
But then again, he did take the Arkenstone when Thorin has specifically asked him not to. And other comments have reminded me of the food he took from the elves. I think he became a thief over the course of the book.
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 29, 2013 09:16
I do not want to repeat it so scroll up to my post on November 21, 2012. I have quoted a passage from The Hobbit.
My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
LinweSingollo
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Post Re: Was Bilbo a thief?
on: January 29, 2013 11:03
Getting back to tarcolan's question of why Tolkien would write a children's story where the hero is a burglar: I think he did it simply to spice things up, make the story a bit more exciting. I doubt if he overthought it, knowing that his children were probably smart and sensible enough to know when they're just being told a good story, with no worry on his part about them all growing up to be thieves. Which they didn't, as it turned out. Not that I've ever heard of any parent protesting this particular aspect of The Hobbit.
"To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees." J.R.R. Tolkien
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