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Lord_Sauron
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Post The reincarnation of elves
on: February 24, 2013 12:24
I was wondering why only Finrod and Glorfindel were resurrected? surely there other elves that could have been given another chance at life
Elthir
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Post Re: The resurrection of elves
on: February 25, 2013 09:27
I would say that many many Elves were reincarnated...

Their death - by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed - and the disembodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.

JRRT, Glorfindel, The Peoples Of Middle-Earth



To me that's Tolkien in a generally speaking mode before he delves into Glorfindel specifically.

It makes sense, as the Elves could not escape the world nor its time, and incarnate life was their natural mode of existence.
tarcolan
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Post Re: The resurrection of elves
on: February 25, 2013 11:37
Perhaps reincarnation would be the preferred term rather than resurrection, as they would get a new body. The Elves could also dis-incarnate themselves if they wished, usually because of some psychic shock such as unbearable grief. Fëanor's mother Míriel gave up her physical form, though the text suggests this was both physical and spiritual weariness. There is another example but I can't remember the name.
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~nólemë~
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Post Re: The resurrection of elves
on: February 26, 2013 03:08
There is another example but I can't remember the name.


Apart from death by grief or weariness, I recall just elf-women subjected to *clears throat* 'force-marriage'.

I agree with Elthir, I'd say that quite a few Elves got out of Mandos by the beginning of the Fourth Age, including the repentant Exiles. Although we only know of Finrod and Glorfindel, I take that with a grain of salt - after all, LotR and The Silm. were supposedly 'written by Bilbo and Frodo', were they not? It's quite likely that even if the Wise knew of others from the Istari or from Glorfindel, they would not feel the need to record it or share it with halflings; or perhaps there was some sort of information embargo on the news from Aman.
I guess the House of Fëanor would be exceptions, save Celebrimbor and (going by the HoME version) Amras. And Finwë; I somehow can't see him leaving Mandos and leaving his firstborn there. Other candidates for an eternity in Mandos would likely be Eol and Maeglin, given that even the nasty Saeros got only a long-term purgatory and then was presumably released.

I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but re:'or return to Middle-earth' in the quote you provided, Elthir - I believe this alternative was subsequently rejected by JRRT, correct?

I pity the returnees from Middle-earth quite a bit - I recall the final version says they couldn't return to Valinor but reside at Eressea. What a miserable existence that must have been... :7
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cirdaneth
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Post Re: The resurrection of elves
on: February 26, 2013 02:03
Looks like we all need to get back into our books again. Myself included, but having just moved house I can't find a darned thing at the moment.
Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: The resurrection of elves
on: February 26, 2013 04:56
I changed the topic from resurrection to reincarnation.
Maybe Tolkien only mentioned Finrod and Glorfindel because they came back to Middle Earth after they died. and didn't think it was necessary to mention any other elves because they decided to stay in Valinor once they were recarnated. I will have to go back to my books
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Post Re: The reincarnation of elves
on: February 26, 2013 05:57
Finrod didn't return to Middle-earth, Lúthien and Glorfindel did.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: The reincarnation of elves
on: February 27, 2013 12:18
Thanks for that noleme my mistake
tarcolan
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Post Re: The reincarnation of elves
on: February 27, 2013 12:21
Lúthien is a special case though, isn't she? Incarnated as a mortal by the grace of Ilúvatar.
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Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: The reincarnation of elves
on: February 27, 2013 12:29
Luthien died of grief after Beren died and if i reacall correctly she went to the halls of Mandos where she sang about how she would never see Beren again so Mandos and Manwe took pity on her and i think with the help of Iluvatar Luthien and Beren were brought back to life and to live as mortals in Middle Earth
Elthir
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Post Re: The reincarnation of elves
on: February 27, 2013 03:55
~nólemë~ wrote: 'I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but re:'or return to Middle-earth' in the quote you provided, Elthir - I believe this alternative was subsequently rejected by JRRT, correct?


This line wasn't repeated in Glorfindel II Noleme.

But in Glorfindel II it is yet noted that (after reincarnation): 'Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first by his own choice. Gondolin was destroyed, and all his kin had perished, and were still in the Halls of Waiting unapproachable by the living.'

As I read this anyway, it seems Glorfindel could have passed to Middle-earth if he had desired it, even though it's added that his stay in the West during the last years of the First Age, and far into the Second Age, was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe.
Belegolas
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on: May 25, 2013 12:18
I always thought that reincarnation in Aman happened to all elves after going through Mandos unless they asked not to. I don't have the source with me, but I think Unfinished Tales said that Miriel (Feanor's mom) refused to be reincarnated because she felt no desire to live again. That was why Finwe is the only elf (to my knowledge) to have remarried because usually the spouse comes back to life in Aman. Once they're brought back to life, they usually stay in Valinor, except in rare exceptions like Luthien and Glorfindel.
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on: May 26, 2013 07:42
I always thought that reincarnation in Aman happened to all elves after going through Mandos unless they asked not to.


That's correct. They could also be forbidden to return, or their return could be withheld (Feanor and probably others). I believe it has everything to do with how soon the disembodied fea comes to terms with their deeds, and 'regains innocence' so it can be set free into the bliss of Aman. I guess that for some, the purgatory would take ages upon ages!
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 16, 2024 12:29
I am most curious about just how the reincarnation would work. At various times Tolkien said that returning to life (like Finrod?) and being reborn in descendants were both options. Sometimes he only mentioned one method, but it is not clear to me whether he was thinking of ruling out the other option when he made those statements.

So I was extremely interested to find this in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 212

“The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be ‘slain’: that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not naturally lead to ‘death’: they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained ‘identical’.”

I was very happy to learn that reborn Elves recover their past memories and identities. As a fan, I find that kind of reincarnation most satisfying. It would also make the reborn option equal or more equal to the return to life option. If reborn Elves did not get their memories back, then their experience would be very different from ones that returned like Finrod. I wonder why some would be reborn and some return. Was it a choice? Or was it deemed healthier for Elves who needed more rehabilitation to go through childhood again. Before their memories come back they would still have the opportunity to learn and develop perspectives that may have differed from their past life.

As Noleme said above, the date of return was determined by rehabilitation time, and some Elves needed more time than others.

I still have questions There just aren’t enough examples of returned and reborn Elves to go on.

[Edited on 03/25/2024 by Elfeawen Lomiondil]
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
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