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Cillendor
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Post Elf children
on: May 21, 2013 12:09
I'm puzzled about something. In The Children of Húrin, it is said that Elves grow up very slowly and remain children in body until 50-100 years of age. This is supported by the Elf child who befriends Túrin in Doriath, who doesn't seem to grow at all in the time that he becomes an adult.

But then in Unfinished Tales, it is said that Elves grow up at roughly the same pace as Men.

Which is supposed to be correct here?
Lord_Sauron
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on: May 21, 2013 02:05
I do not know which of these books are correct.
However I found that it mentions about the Elves in Morgoth's Ring chapter Laws and Customs among the Eldar. I can not write out the whole quote of it lol it does say that the Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Man but in mind more swiftly. it does go on a lot from there.

hope that helps.

[Edited on 05/21/2013 by Lord_Sauron]
cirdaneth
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on: May 21, 2013 02:25
Thanks Lord Sauron, that saved me a lot of typing

Time is a knotty business with elves. There is a further section in Morgoth's Ring, explaining the differing flow of time between Aman and Middle Earth where Tolkien suggests that an elf in ME may take 3000 sun-years to reach maturity. Sun-years being our regular measure; but elves, of course, have their own 'year' in ME and in Aman it is different again.

I am bumping an elf-life thread which may also be of interest.
Cillendor
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on: May 21, 2013 12:01
Ah, thank you for that info. I only have the first five HoME books so far, and I haven't even been able to read them yet because I'm going through Unfinished Tales first. I just came across that thing about Elf children yesterday and was confused. Anyway, I can't imagine being a child for longer than I was. Maybe their minds develop faster, but that just seems tedious. If I'm going to live forever, let me do it as an adult, please.
Elthir
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on: May 22, 2013 08:49
Which is correct?

It might depend upon how one is going to define correct, but the latest statement that I can find basically agrees with the one found in Unfinished Tales [already noted in the thread]. I underline the significant parts here...

C: Note 1: C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).'

JRRT, author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'), from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70


As we know, Tolkien had different ideas according to earlier texts.

cirdaneth said: '(...) Time is a knotty business with elves. There is a further section in Morgoth's Ring, explaining the differing flow of time between Aman and Middle Earth where Tolkien suggests that an elf in ME may take 3000 sun-years to reach maturity. Sun-years being our regular measure; but elves, of course, have their own 'year' in ME and in Aman it is different again.'



Maybe I'm reading your post incorrectly [concerning the word flow at least], but I would say it's not really a matter of differing time flow but one of different measurement.

Time in Aman passed at the same rate as in Middle-earth, but the growth and change of all things was not the same in both places. The scenario in Lorien was similar. So as 3,000 years passed in Middle-earth, the same amount of actual time passed in Aman; and the growth of Elven children was just as slow in each place.

This large number [3,000] seems to be the number for Elves at the beginning of their history however, which number remained the case in Aman for Elven growth, but there the land itself did not change as rapidly as in Middle-earth. But in Middle-earth the rate to maturity appears to have dwindled, noting Finrod's words to Andreth in their conversation reported in Morgoth's Ring [if I recall correctly this text was connected to the text on time in Aman].

If this is the correct view of these texts taken together, can we add a third with Laws and Customs? In other words, did Tolkien intend to have the rate dwindle in Middle-earth to as little as 50 or 100 years [dwindle from 3,000 when Elves first awoke]?

Hmm, maybe that's why Tolkien's later concept is that the Elves grew at about the same rate as Men -- again this seems to be his latest statement on the matter, if not his most in depth statement on it...

... so far anyway. I mean VT 47 itself is relatively new information

[Edited on 05/22/2013 by Elthir]
Cillendor
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on: May 23, 2013 12:02
Thanks! It makes sense. I can't imagine taking that long to mature, but then again I can't imagine living the ~900 years of our antediluvian ancestors, either. I'm barely 23, and I'm already weary of the world.
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