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Lord_Sauron
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Post Glorfindel
on: October 13, 2013 01:26
I was just wondering why Glorfindel who was said to be a powerful Elf did not kill the Witch king early in the Third Age even though he prophesied that no man could kill him.

Also if this was indeed the same Glorfindel from the first Age then if he managed to kill a Balrog, killing the Witch King shouldn’t be an issue


[Edited on 10/13/2013 by Lord_Sauron]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: October 14, 2013 05:24
The general consensus seems to be that he is the same Glorfindel, but as to why he didn't or couldn't kill the Witch- King, I'm not sure but I'm going to start the discussion by raising the possibility that he couldn't be killed because he was no longer of flesh and blood and totally in this world. After all he wasn't killed until the ancient blade pierced him. broke the 'spell' of his ring, and made him flesh again so that he could be killed. I'm assuming that before that happened you could stab and slice him day long without the blade ever coming into contact with him.
Lord_Sauron
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on: October 14, 2013 07:33
It was lucky then that Merry had found the blade in the Barrow Downs. If not then perhaps Gandalf would of had to use Glamdring to break the "spell". Or just sit back and wait for The One Ring to be destroyed.
tarcolan
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on: October 15, 2013 12:11
FOUND IT! Oops, sorry for shouting. I remembered a discussion about the killability of Nazgul but I've only just found it - in the Movie forum, a thread about Nazgul loyalties. Specifically the post by Elthir.

I think Tolkien worked backwards from the Witch King's death to the prophesy. Glorfindel's reluctance to go after the Witch King in the Northern war was simply a set-up for the plot in ROTK. I'm sure the Elves had the technology to defeat the Witch King. He was obviously scared of Glorfindel.
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Elthir
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on: October 15, 2013 08:26
I think Tarcolan is correct with his external perspective. Internally we could likely come up with a reason, but I think the key, in any case, is 'shall' versus 'cannot'.

The Nazgul-lord was powerful but not invulnerable to normal weapons in my opinion, meaning I don't think a barrow-dagger such as Merry's was needed to take him out. Very helpful, yes.

And I think he had a normally invisible but 'killable' body [the question of his 'ultimate death' aside here]. He is described as having invisible sinew when Merry stabs him, for instance.

There is at least one statement I'm aware of that admittedly seems to say otherwise [from Gandalf no less, something to Legolas about a foe that he couldn't slay with arrows I think, or similar wording], but to my mind, if it were true that one could not 'touch' this being with a regular weapon, it would open up too large a can of worms.

The Witch-king's great power is unreasoning fear. Few were strong-willed enough to even face him. But that overcome, I think a man 'could' slay him, potentially, but in the end, if the prophesy proves true, no 'man' would slay him.

With respect to Glorfindel I'll just add that Tolkien wrote two late texts in which he decided that Glorfindel of Imladris was Glorfindel of Gondolin reincarnated.

Many Elves reincarnated [in the same exact body], but Glorfindel was exceptional because he was a Noldorin Exile but allowed to return in a physical body in Aman before the Ban on the Exiles was lifted; and he returned to Middle-earth as well.

Some take issue with these late texts on external grounds: Tolkien himself never published them -- my answer to that is, if only author-published texts are in play, there is only one Glorfindel in the first place [a Noldo of Imladris].


And for myself so far I find no compelling reason to not accept Tolkien's word on the matter. Not that anyone here isn't accepting Tolkien's word on the matter...

... yet

[Edited on 10/16/2013 by Elthir]
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