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mirqueen
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Post The House of Finwë (& Indis)
on: February 03, 2014 09:44
I was looking over the encyclopedia entry for Gil-galad, Orodreth, and Angrod (working out some history/background for a story) and I quickly became confused. The notes on each of those entries discuss two different lineages for the heirs of Finwë & Indis.

On the one hand, it appears that Tolkien wrote in the original Silmarillion that Gil-galad was Fingolfin's son, while Orodreth & Angrod were the sons of Finarfin.

On the other hand, the extra notes on those entries also state that Tolkien later revised his ideas, making Gil-galad the son of Orodreth, who was then the son of Angrod, who was still the son of Finarfin.

I have my own copy of The Silmarillion (an edition edited with "second edition text of The Silmarillion" by Christopher Tolkien and published in 2004) from which I have yet another version of this lineage. My book has a family tree drawn out for the House of Finwë. In this tree, it lists Gil-galad as the son of Fingon, who is the son of Fingolfin, and Orodreth as the son of Finarfin (Angrod is not a father at all), and Orodreth's daughter is Finduilas.

In the earliest version of The Silmarillion, it seems that Gil-galad stood as the son of Fingolfin. From the CoE notes (not sure which version/edition those are from), it seems that Gil-Galad stood as the great-great-nephew of Fingolfin. With the version in my copy, it seems that Gil-galad was the grandson of Fingolfin.

What is the latest published version of Gil-galad's lineage?
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cirdaneth
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on: February 05, 2014 01:15
Thank you for drawing my attention to this. Our encyclopaedia was originally compiled from members' entries, with other members at liberty to submit additions and corrections. Many are in need of checking, and since becoming Books Admin I've spent several years updating the entries relevant to The Hobbit, a task as yet unfinished. The Gil-Galad entry definitely needs work. As you say, it is confusing, and possibly just plain wrong. Meanwhile ...

I have an original published Silmarillion (from 1977) with the tree you mention
where Gil-Galad is clearly son of Fingon, grandson of Fingolfin and great-grandson of Finwe and Indis. As far as I am aware, all other suggestions come from unpublished developmental material included in HoME. Our original submitter added this without explanation. Hence the confusion.
Lord_Sauron
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on: February 05, 2014 03:49
Hi mirqueen the Silmarillion that I have was published in 2008 by HarperCollins. according to tolkiengateway.net there is a 2013 Edition which is also published by HarperCollins.
However in my book Gil-Galad is the son of Fingon who is the son of Fingolfin.
Orodreth is the son of Finarfin. Orodreth is the brother of Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel. Finduilas is Orodreth's daughter.

In my book Gil-Galad has no offspring making him the Last High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth.

Hope that helps
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: February 05, 2014 12:01
This debate has gone on for quite a while because Tolkien himself seemed to have difficulty resolving poor Gil-galad's parentage. My understanding is that when Christopher Tolkien was reviewing his late father's notes, he came across a notation in a margin where his father noted that Fingon was Gil-galad's father. He subsequently corrected this when the Peoples of Middle-Earth was published and said he made an error, since having Gil-galad as Fingon's son wasn't true to Fingon's (?) character.

To confuse the issue further, Orodreth appears to be either the son of Finarfin or the son of Angrod depending on where you look. Tolkien's final decision seems to be that Gil-galad was the son of Orodreth who, in turn, was the son of Angrod, who was the son of Finarfin. However, this was never incorporated into the text of the Silmarillion as it would have required considerable rewriting of some parts of the book.

Christopher Tolkien likely summed it up best when he suggested that it would have been better to have left Gil-galad's parentage obscure.



[Edited on 02/12/2014 by Evil~Shieldmaiden]
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mirqueen
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on: February 05, 2014 04:18
I guess it certainly would have been better in obscurity.

For my story, I will use the family tree from The Silmarillion, since the corresponding stories and histories in that text incorporate Gil-galad as being the son of Fingon, and Orodreth as Galadriel's brother.

Thank you cirdaneth, Lord Suaron, and Evil~Shieldmaiden for clearing this up!
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Elthir
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on: February 09, 2014 07:13
Well, much has already been answered, but it might be worth noting that Gil-galad was once a 'Finarfinian' in Tolkien's mind, before JRRT mused about him being a son of Fingon, and so in a sense Gil-galad returned to being a Finarfinian in the 'final' [known] idea.

Of course that is simplifying the external history, but it's not like having Gil-galad in the House of Finarfin/Finrod was a wholly new idea, and even CJRT used the word 'ephemeral' when it came to the notion of Fingon.

'Much closer analysis of the admittedly extremely complex material than I made some twenty years ago makes it clear that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon (see XI. 56, 243) was an ephemeral idea.' Christopher Tolkien


'There can be no doubt that this was my father's last word on the subject [Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth/Arothir] but nothing of this late and radically altered conception ever touched the existing narratives, and it was obviously impossible to introduce it into the published Silmarillion. It would nonetheless have been very much better to have left Gil-galad’s parentage obscure.'

Christopher Tolkien POME


I note for the constructed Children of Hurin, Christopher Tolkien does leave the matter unsaid in the family tree.

I'm not sure if Tolkien intended to preserve the name Orodreth even. In the final tree we have: Angrod -- whose son was Artaher, Sindarin Arothir [the person 'Orodreth'] -- whose son was Gil-galad
Elthir
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on: February 09, 2014 07:17
Evil~Shieldmaiden said: (...) To confuse the issue further, Orodreth appears to be either the son of Finarfin or the son of Argon depending on where you look.


I think that's probably a slip for Angrod, but Argon was Turgon's brother [according to late texts].
Lord_Sauron
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on: February 12, 2014 05:20
According to tolkiengateway.net it has Orodreth the son of Angrod and Eldalote also Orodreth seems to be the father of Gil-Galad and Finduilas.

This next paragraph that I have put in bold was copied from tolkiengateway.net.

In earlier versions of the Silmarillion legendarium as detailed in The History of Middle-earth series, Orodreth was a more important character, and the original king of Nargothrond. However his importance diminished over time.

In the published Silmarillion, Orodreth is a son of Finarfin, with Quenya name Artanáro. In the later version Gil-galad, later High King of the Noldor, was his son, but in the published Silmarillion Gil-galad is made into Fingon's son instead. An earlier idea was that Orodreth's son was named Hallas, but Gil-galad replaced him. Since this later revision wasn't integrated in any of his father's narratives, Christopher Tolkien didn't include it in the published text. However, unlike in the matter of Gil-galad, Christopher Tolkien believed that the decision to make Orodreth the son of Angrod was final.

In The Children of Húrin Orodreth is once again the son of Finarfin, for reasons unstated. One can assume this was so as not to confuse readers already familiar with The Silmarillion.


If this post is a breach of copyright then could the Book Moderators please immediately delete this post.
tarcolan
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on: February 12, 2014 12:53
I shouldn't think you have to worry about copyright for a small accredited quote like that. Anyway there is no guarantee that it's any more correct than any other source. In the end we have to turn to the books to decide.
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Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: February 12, 2014 02:25
Thanks for picking up my "goof" Elthir! Image I have corrected my post. Image
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