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Carofeagle
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Post Does Maglor survive, or does he die wandering the seashore?
on: March 22, 2014 10:07
Caroline Ervin
tarcolan
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on: March 22, 2014 11:43
"...but he came never back among the people of the Elves." - The Silmarillion

No-one knows his fate. Myself I think he is still wandering a seashore somewhere, singing of the sorrow of the Noldor. Ulmo brings him fish.
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cirdaneth
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on: March 23, 2014 12:48
I think so too, Tarcolan. If you sit very quietly you can hear him singing.
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: March 29, 2014 10:38
I disagree. In the manner of elves, I would think his grief would diminish him over a period of time; his body would fade, leaving his feä to enter the Halls of Mandos.
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Elthir
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on: March 29, 2014 10:48
Well, I'm guessing the question was meant in an internal way, that is: 'What do you think was Maglor's fate according to what is noted in the constructed Silmarillion'? Okay but this is JRR Tolkien, and his never finished Silmarillion, and Elthir who can't resist getting 'external' here.

Thus... there's a possibly 'alternate tradition' that Maglor perished, noting the quotes at the bottom of the following examples:

The Sketch of the Mythology...

'On the last of the march Maglor says to Maidros that there are two sons of Feanor, and two Silmarils; one is his. He steals it, and flies, but it burns him so that he knows he no longer has a right to it. He wanders in pain over the earth, and casts himself into a pit. (casts himself into a pit > casts it into a fiery pit) One Silmaril is now in the sea, and one in the earth. (Added here: Maglor sings now ever in sorrow by the sea.)' The Earliest 'Silmarillion' 18, HoME IV

Quenta Noldorinwa...

'It is told too of Maglor that he fled far, but he too could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and in an agony he cast it from him into a yawning gap filled with fire, in the rending of the Western lands, and the jewel vanished into the bosom of the Earth. But Maglor came never back among the folk of Elfinesse, but wandered singing in pain and in regret beside the sea.' The Quenta 18, HoME IV

I'll leave the Quenta Silmarillion version out here, but essentially this was the idea written before Tolkien began The Lord of the Rings in the later 1930s. And certainly the 'wandering [and so on]' idea was the one Christopher Tolkien chose for the constructed Silmarillion, as we know, but it was the latest known idea existing in that tradition in any case...

... as Tolkien himself never really returned to the end section of Quenta Silmarillion to truly revise it in any significant sense; some later cursory corrections exist, but CJRT himself warns against considering the final section of Quenta Silmarillion being truly revised at this later date.

Did JRRT change his mind much later?

1951 letter

'The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown � only to be lost. The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth. (Letter no.131)

The Lay of Leithian (Recommenced):

'No other player has there been,
no other lips or fingers seen
so skilled, ’tis said in elven-lore,
save Maelor* son of Feanor,
forgotten harper, singer doomed,
who young when Laurelin yet bloomed
to endless lamentation passed
and in the tombless sea was cast.

(*Both Maglor and Maelor appear in the draft manuscript of this passage. The final typescript has Maelor, changed to Maglor, but not I think by my father.) The Lay of Leithian Recommenced

So while we have 'endless' lamentation, Maglor was yet cast himself, into the Sea. Later? Or is endless just being poetic here -- in other words, that it would have been a life of endless lamenatation had he not cast himself into the Sea.

Or is it a purposed deviation from a wholly different tradition? And by that I mean, did Tolkien intend for the 'true' legendarium to suggest both notions existed in some form. In any case it seems [to me] like a good matter for a little in-story confusion.

And that really is not all the external textual details here, but in my opinion, the Lay has a good chance* of being Tolkien's 'last word' on the matter, from a purely [external] chronological perspective I mean.

You may now roll your eyes at my annoying pedantry. Or I can give a razz to me if that helps...

to Elthir!

_____

*as this section seems to date to 'at least' after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, and could be notably later. It appears to be as old as other sections which employ the later change of the name Finrod to Finarfin and Inglor [Felagund] to Finrod.

[Edited on 03/29/2014 by Elthir]
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: March 30, 2014 11:46
You may now roll your eyes at my annoying pedantry. Or I can give a razz to me if that helps...


Au contraire: Thanks for your most erudite post on this subject. I appreciate the time and effort it took to gather and disseminate the information.

Thus... there's a possibly 'alternate tradition' that Maglor perished, ....


I accept that this is a distinct possibility as far as his corporeal manifestation is concerned, but I find it difficult to accept that he would lose his immortality. Even if he cast himself into a fiery pit, or the sea, wouldn't his feä still find its way to the Halls?

With Elves, I tend to make a distinct separation between their bodies and their spirits.

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tarcolan
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on: March 30, 2014 12:52
I can't see Mandos allowing Maglor's spirit to wander the shore. Perhaps he lamented eternally in the Halls of Mandos, imagining himself on the shore, at least until the Last Battle.

From The Silmarillion: 'The Rings of Power'-
'In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the havens and left Middle-Earth forever.'
It seems fairly clear that Tolkien intended all Fëanor's sons to succumb to the Curse.
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~nólemë~
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on: March 30, 2014 02:57
@ tarco - Well, Mandos can't make a fëa obey his summons. But as for the Feanoreans, I think 6 ended up in Mandos since their father was also there. Maglor's spirit either went there too if he died, or he might still be wandering the shore - but despite his grief, he's an Amanya through and through, not as bound to Middle-earth as a Dark Elf. Given the depth of his regretfulness, and his loose tie to M-e that doesn't have anything to offer him anymore, I can't see Maglor as one of the fëar that entered living people's bodies and banished the original souls.
My 2 cents re. Maglor's fate - I'm partial to both versions, but one more mention of his death (indirect, and I don't recall in which book and from which year) is in a passage saying something like "It wasn't much later, until Fëanor and all his sons had perished...". The "all" is definitely there.
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Elthir
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on: March 31, 2014 06:32
... but one more mention of his death (indirect, and I don't recall in which book and from which year) is in a passage saying something like "It wasn't much later, until Fëanor and all his sons had perished...". The "all" is definitely there.


Ahh, interesting Noleme. Now I want to know which text and when, if the when can be known.

A quick, seemingly all inclusive reference might sometimes be considered a reasonable 'mistake' of brevity [I mean after all, 6 out of 7 died and one has a fate that isn't easily proven if he never came back* among the Elves]... but on the other hand such a reference could simply be in step with all the sons dying.

___

*'And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves. For Maglor was mighty among the singers of old, named only after Daeron of Doriath; but he came never back among the people of the Elves.'

And that said, the unedited Quenta Silmarillion also had this to say...

'...not all would forsake the Outer Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles and the lands of Leithien. And among these were Maglor as has been told;..'


Although again, a relatively early text within the larger picture.



[Edited on 03/31/2014 by Elthir]
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