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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Bilbo reliquishing the Ring.
on: May 13, 2014 12:44
I'm rereading the lord of The Rings again and something just caught my attention. In "The Shadow of the past" Gandalf says to Frodo, while discussing how difficult it would be to give up the One Ring, that as far as he knows, Bilbo is the only one ever to willingly give up a Ring of Power.
It seems to me that he'd only have to look at his own fingers to see the falsehood in that statement.
tarcolan
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on: May 13, 2014 03:20
Not only Cirdan either. Maybe he didn't mean Elves.
Anyway we don't talk about that chapter. Read it again concentrating on the Ring and there are quite a few disturbing statements.
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cirdaneth
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on: May 25, 2014 02:30
I don't think the three elven rings were Rings of Power in the sense the others were. They empowered their bearers in the protection of other people, places, things and ideas but had no influence on the other rings. These three rings were not worn by their bearers either, until all was over. They had never been touched by Sauron, and never worn by their bearers ... not Celebrimbor, who made them, not Gil-Galad, nor Cirdan, and Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel wear them only as they leave Middle-Earth. So Gandalf's fingers are bare in the Shadow of the Past chapter.
tarcolan
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on: May 25, 2014 09:51
When Gandalf makes the comment he was talking of how perilous the rings of power were to mortals, which leads me to believe he was excluding the Elves. It is a moot point whether all Elves could resist the draw of a ring, especially the One Ring. Only Galadriel ever had to face that test, being offered it freely. Even Gandalf, a Maia, had difficulty.

The Three were definitely different to the others but were counted among the twenty great rings. I'm not convinced that mortals could have coped with them, at least not many.
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Elthir
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on: May 25, 2014 12:48
I think the bearers of the Three wore them, just not 'openly'. 'Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire.'

This is actually the revised version of this sentence [thus second edition]. I don't have the first edition version handy at the moment, but I'm not sure the difference necessarily [certainly] proves anything in any case.

Anyway, some think the Three themselves were invisible before the One was destoyed, due to Sam's answer to Galadriel in Lothlorien [he saw a star between Galadriel's fingers].

I don't agree, but there it is. Below is my longer wrangling about this. Hopefully I've made it long and boring enough that no one will read it.



____________________ [pass this line if you need help sleeping]

Tolkien notes that the Three do not confer invisibility, and implies [at least] that invisibility is one of those powers more directly derived from Annatar/Sauron/Aulendil/whoeverhewas.


'The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (...) such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.'


The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.'

JRRT Letters


It seems odd to me that the Three, which are ultimate in potency but which Sauron had no hand in, were themselves invisible if they did not confer invisibility. Plus if you are Celebrimbor, you don't necessarily need to make these rings invisible, at least when you make them, as at this point Annatar seems a nice enough guy and would possibly make a good brother in law.

And what Jewel-smith wants to hide the jewelry

But okay I admit it: Sam doesn't seem to 'see' a ring. But he doesn't see nothing. Strained or not, here's another take.

Although Earendil was said to be bright enough that Galadriel cast a dim shadow, it was still dark, and Frodo sees the ring when the starlight glanced off Nenya. When Galadriel first lifted up her arms: 'Frodo gazed at the Ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.' We don't know at this point that the Ring was necessarily invisible. Frodo doesn't suddenly see the Ring I think, but suddenly understands. I think this connects to Galadriel's question later.

The second time Galadriel lifts her hand the Ring issued a great light that illuminated her alone. Frodo does ask why he cannot: '... see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them' but even this isn't exactly 'simple sight' but perception as well. As Ringbearer his 'sight has grown keener' -- not his physical visual powers I think, but his ability to see that which is hidden from the perception of others.

But of course comes the issue of Sam: yet note Galadriel's question compared to what had been noted about Frodo suddenly understanding: 'And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning to Sam.'

Granted Galadriel doesn't say 'and recognize' to Sam as well, but I find it notable that 'and recognize' was added to a draft at some point, where the earlier text simply had 'see' for Frodo's question as well. Sam doesn't actually mention any ring of course, admittedly suggesting invisibility, but he did see something -- and to my mind something connected to what was actually going on too -- he saw 'a star through your [Galadriel's] fingers'.

Again that's something. But perhaps Sam would not 'see' the truth even if he had noticed an actual ring: he wasn't the Bearer of the One, and as a Hobbit in general is 'Halfwise' and simple (Sam already had said he didn't want 'to see no more magic' even). This would be quite like Tolkien in my opinion: a good way to illustrate perception would be to have Sam see something he thought was something else, and simply not understand what all this talk was about.

I'm not saying this is a clearly correct interpretation (especially if there is other text to consider on this point), but if Tolkien wants to keep invisibility in general out of the picture with respect to the Three, perhaps he would have explained this scene as being more about perception than simply visual recognition of a ring.

Maybe I would make a poor detective here, but upon meeting people and talking with them (for a while even), I wouldn't necessarily be sure, an hour later or whatever, whether or not they were wearing any rings, unless it's made notable for some reason. It seems odd that Sam didn't actually see any Ring, and odd too that he should say he wondered what they were talking about, as Galadriel simply states she is wearing Nenya! Even if Sam hadn't noticed an actual ring, Galadriel's meaning should be plain enough.

Still, I note what occurs after Sam's vision. Sam was notably upset by what he saw in the mirror, and we don't know how attentive he was being after his experience -- and we can 'see' in his answer to Galadriel that his mind is (at least arguably) still on home after Frodo's vision and conversation -- wishing Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on.

Boiled down it's a combination of light, Sam being distracted by his vision and perhaps not even caring to understand (at least at the moment) what Frodo perceived.

It's just a possible interpretation I think, but not 'bullet proof' admittedly.

____________ [pass this line for an arguable 'bullet' in the metaphorical sense]


'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.'


So, Tolkien had published that already. Does that mean the Three do confer invisibility, or is Gandalf merely speaking generally here?

You decide
cirdaneth
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on: May 26, 2014 01:46
I would think the three ring-bearers did wear their rings, probably on a chain as Frodo did the One. After all, they weren't going to leave them lying about in their hand-luggage, but it is explicit that the rings could never be 'put on'. Even without the One in his possession, Sauron would be aware immediately and the wearer would be ensnared. Celebrimbor realised that, and had them removed to a place of safety. Carried secretly, the Three gave special strengths and talents, and in their way facilitated the destruction of the One.
Elthir
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on: May 26, 2014 12:31
cirdaneth said: After all, they weren't going to leave them lying about in their hand-luggage, but it is explicit that the rings could never be 'put on'. Even without the One in his possession, Sauron would be aware immediately and the wearer would be ensnared.


Can you point to the passage Cirdaneth?

Isn't Galadriel, for example, wearing Nenya on her finger in the scene with Frodo?
Gandolorin
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on: May 26, 2014 02:16
cirdaneth said:Even without the One in his possession, Sauron would be aware immediately and the wearer would be ensnared. Celebrimbor realised that, and had them removed to a place of safety.

Here you are entirely wrong, cirdaneth.
Celebrimbor realized that Sauron had created the One Ring as soon as Sauron put it on. The then Ring-Bearers of The Three immediately took theirs off and thus became invisible to Sauron with the One Ring.
After Sauron had lost the One Ring (which he had expressly created, and endowed with an amount of his native power which in the end proved disastrous to him, to be able to control The Three), he was utterly blind to ANY other ring. Read the chapter about Lothlorien, as I recall Galadriel says that she is able to read Sauron's mind with her ring, while he is in a total fog about The Three. And Galadriel's and Elrond's rings were very much part of the reason that Lothlorien and Rivendell were so well preserved. Something that Bilbo, talking about himself to Gandalf, also mentions, only to reject it as something he does not feel about himself: "too little butter scraped on too much bread", or so. With the One Ring NOT in Sauron's control, the bearers of The Three were also wearers of The Three.
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tarcolan
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on: May 26, 2014 02:40
I had always assumed that it was Earendil that Sam saw, but I'd agree that he didn't see the ring at first because, as you say, people don't generally notice such things. Also the fact that the starlight glinted off the ring might indicate that it was not invisible, or that the magic affected the observer and not the ring itself. As you say Elthir it would be strange for Celebrimbor to make them invisible. Easy to lose.

Whether Elrond wore his ring is difficult say. Surely Frodo at least would have noticed, so he wasn't wearing it at the council. We can assume that Gandalf did not for the same reason, not while he was with Frodo anyway.

All of which has nothing to do with the original question.
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Gandolorin
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on: May 27, 2014 12:15
Very true, tarc, but sometimes the tangents turn out to be interesting for their own sake.

Bilbo relinquishing the Ring. The One Ring. He's the middle man in a five-person chain post Sauron: Isildur, Sméagol/Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Gollum/Sméagol (never mind the film garbage).
Grumble. Sam is the fifth bearer. There goes my nice neat symmetry.
No, wait!!! Then Frodo is the sixth, and Gollum the seventh (sigh of relief!)

The first two were "betrayed" by the Ring. Bilbo gained it by "chance" (something that has been written about at length). He also exhibited mercy by not killing Gollum where he could have done it with the advantage given by wearing the Ring. (Short aside thought: killing some of the spiders does not seem to count against him - or did he "Sting" any of them after having dispatched the first one without the Ring?)
Owns it far away from the location of the Ring's master for 60 years, uses it only to disappear. Does have some issues in leaving it behind after the farewell party, and never forgets it.
Frodo's 17 years of ownership most likely passed as did Bilbo's 60 years. After that, he was pursued by powerful servants of the Ring, while carrying it ever closer to its place of making and its Master, and of course has Gollum as a companion, which always has the element of tension between the two. And Frodo's growing realization what Gollum is going through.

So Bilbo was the only bearer that had a ghost of a chance of relinquishing the Ring. Part of his character, where the Ring could just not find a chink in the armor to use to its advantage. All others were in danger, those with diverse levels of native power the most. Some knew their danger and rejected it (Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel, Faramir). Those with illusions would have been destroyed by it (Denethor, Boromir). And Saruman (and Gandalf, had he chosen so) would have been able to take Sauron's place with the Ring - one Black lord down, a new Black Lord taking his place. Yeah, great.
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tarcolan
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on: May 27, 2014 06:06
What about Tom? He had the Ring and gave it up. Come to think of it, so did Gandalf.

[Edited on 05/28/2014 by tarcolan]
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cirdaneth
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on: May 28, 2014 02:22
... and come to think of it, somebody took the ring from Frodo at Rivendel, strung it on a new chain and hung it about Frodo's neck ...hmm.
tarcolan
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on: May 28, 2014 12:47
Heh, I forgot that one. I've often wondered who would have the strength to take the Ring and give it back. Sorry Gando, for spoiling your symmetry.

[Edited on 05/28/2014 by tarcolan]
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Gandolorin
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on: May 28, 2014 01:28
No broken symmetry here. You each fell into the same trap as I did with Sam.
OK Gandalf, OK Tom, OK Rivendell - but each time Frodo gets it back!
Isildur - Sméagol - Bilbo - Frodo - Gandalf - Frodo - Tom - Frodo - [Rivendell] - Frodo - Sam - Frodo - Gollum.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: May 29, 2014 01:06
Perhaps Gandalf put the Ring on the chain or is it possible that Glorfindel may have done it?.
tarcolan
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on: May 29, 2014 04:07
Maybe they used tweezers...
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