Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Discuss the Books » Bashing LOTR and Tolkien for being light pure almost "disneyesque" fantasy setting
Author Topic:
DarthMI
Council Member
Posts: 8
Send Message
Post Bashing LOTR and Tolkien for being light pure almost "disneyesque" fantasy setting
on: May 14, 2014 12:49
One of the biggest critcism Tolkien faces today is his fantasy setting-especially his most famous work The Lord of the RIngs- is that his stories lack the grittiness and darkness modern fantasy such as Diablo, Warhammer, and (most specifcally of all) Game of Thrones. The popular perception of LOTR is that the designs are all shiny and generic "good guy" armor, almost to the point that the Riders of Rohan and Gondorians are immediately pictured as Disney's handsome knights-in-shining armor who rescues damsels. Even the bad guys of LOTR such as the Orcs are not viewed as terrifying by the modern critics and general public and even diehard fantasy fans who have not read into Tolkien and probably only seen the movies.

As someone who finished a recent reread of LOTR, I can tell you the descriptions of the setting and atmosphere are anything but disney style. Even the armor and designs of the human soldiers are not described as beautiful shiny. Tolkien doesn't put gritty descriptions like Orcish blood on the chainmail, but he describes wounds on the soldiers after battles and even broken parts like slewn chainmail or blunted helmets.

The forces of Mordor are actually quite terrrifying in the book, being implied to eat the flesh of their enemies. They are described as being hellish and monstrous comparable to real demons. I admit being spooked reading about the Moria chapters.Their armor are described as grotesque.

Even the humans are ,contrary to popular opinions, not wearing the stereotypical medieval knight in shining armor costume. On the good guys side, they vary depending on which civilization. Some wandering peoples on the outskirts of Gondor are described as wearing stereotypical Barbarian costumes.

Both sides are quite brutal. The Orcs for example threw human heads from catapults into Minas Tirith.

While crimes on the good guys sides are not described in details, several nobles and politicians such as Boromir and Denethor are rather nasty in Disney standards. Boromir LOVES KILLING-not just Orcs but even humans. Denetor was a politician who used guile and deceit at some points in the story.

The setting, rather than being a genegic happyland fantasy world, at least during the time LOTR takes place in, is described as a dreadful hopeless one. Even the protagonists like Aragorn, often seen as beacons of hope, have doubts about if they could even at least fight Sauron off. The general spirit of the people of Middle Earth is a gloomy one, hoping for a savior to come.

No adaptation so far except for Bakshi justify in showing how terrifying some of the chieftains of Mordor's culture. Moria is a dreadful place of evil (where as the movie portrayed it as a beautiful region). The Witch King and the Dark Riders had me terrified. Even the battles, often seen as a stereotypical good forces triumph over evil and where the good guys hack the enemies, were actually dreadful ones with a sense of doom and terror.

This is not counting the Appendix which describes Middle Earth even in the most hopeful of times as a violent one with darkness and evil hiding about and wars for the most foulest of reasons (treachery between family princes,etc). Even after the Ring was destroyed, Middle Earth was not the happy Disney fair tale image pop media gives it as there is still destruction and continuous strife and brutal killings and stuff. The Scouring of the Shire(in the main story,not Appendix) is one example.

I can go on and on but there are too many examples int he story I can point out to show that LOTR is not a generic fairy tale style story about Knights in Shining armor in its atmosphere, setting, and designs (armor, architecture,etc). But this stigma is so in-grained in LOTRs image in pop media.

What do you think?
LadyBeruthiel
Council Member
Posts: 94
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 14, 2014 06:58
Anyone who thinks that way hasn't read the Trilogy--at least not very carefully. I've even seen Tolkien criticized for not killing off any of his main characters, as if that were somehow required for good fiction. But remember, LOTR pioneered the fantasy genre; when it was first published, people thought it was a fairy tale for kids. I guess some of that has just stuck, especially among people who don't bother to read closely.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 15, 2014 04:17
So what exactly are we to discuss here, Darth? The critics? The movies? The Books? Tolkien himself? Since you have read the trilogy and know how gritty and violent the books really are ... and since this IS the Books forum, I think you'd get more response in the Movies Forum, besides encouraging a few more people to actually read the books. Go for it!
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: May 15, 2014 11:22
Look at the other thread here "Bashing LOTR for Black and White Morality and Simplistic Good VS Evil Plot", it is similar.
But I must say seeing JRRT and Disney in the same sentence is asking for a serious earthquake in Wolvercote Cemetery near Oxford. JRRT basically detested Disney with a vengeance (perhaps even more so as he saw some redeeming parts, but probably thought overall "what a waste of talent!".
Image
findemaxam48
Council Member
Posts: 9188
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 18, 2014 02:03
Anyone writer, Disney included, who bashes LotR may have some teeny bits of jealousy floating around deep down inside. Tolkien did pave the way for others to follow his example.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
parluggla
Council Member
Posts: 50
Send Message
Post
on: May 18, 2014 07:48
Tolkien did pave the way for others to follow his example.


Yes, but no one has, which puzzles me. Sure, he made it better for what we now call "fantasy" to thrive, but I don't see anyone of his vision or strength. I see lots and lots of formula done by smart people, but no one of Tolkien's stature, no one able to state such a good story so boldly.
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: May 19, 2014 12:21
JRRT did pave a way. But he also raised the bar to almost impossible heights. I don't know about the 1950s, but by publisher's formula nowadays (and publishers, poor simple creatures, can think of little less than formulas) he broke about every rule they know. So what doe that tell us about their rules? Be thankful for Sir Stanley Unwin, and that LotR came out in the decade it did. With the brainwashed robots in publishing nowadays (especially since anti-trust authorities have been kept from doing their jobs properly by corrupt governments and legislatures since about 1980 plus / minus a year by Maggie, Ronny and Helmut II - and don't get me started on Dubya about 20 years later, that WILL get very ugly), LotR would not have the slightest chance of being published today.
Image
tarcolan
Movies Moderator and General Dogsbody
Posts: 6046
Send Message
Post
on: May 19, 2014 01:39
Bach did everything there was to be done with equal-tempered tuning. All music since has just been variations. This often happens, the first to explore new ground do such a good job it's hard for anyone else to follow. It's also unlikely that anyone would spend their lives creating the background material for a story.
Hangman Helper program
findemaxam48
Council Member
Posts: 9188
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 19, 2014 03:20
tarcolan said:Bach did everything there was to be done with equal-tempered tuning. All music since has just been variations. This often happens, the first to explore new ground do such a good job it's hard for anyone else to follow. It's also unlikely that anyone would spend their lives creating the background material for a story.


I agree. Anyone who dedicates a lifetime to writing, whether to music or words or lyrics- and has gotten it to last for years and years and years- has got some searious coveted talent.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: May 20, 2014 02:36
We have no intention of getting you started, Gandolorin, as one of our site rules is that we do not discuss politics. I agree with Tarcolan about Bach/Tolkien, but although some good points have been made, bashing the bashers is generally counterproductive. Others are free to dislike/ignore Tolkien if they wish, but there is no point in getting our underwear in a twist about it. It's bad for your blood-pressure. Tolkien is about the healing of enmities, not sustaining them. Just sometimes you run into a dwarf who will visit a forest or an elf who will visit a mine.
parluggla
Council Member
Posts: 50
Send Message
Post
on: May 20, 2014 08:03
Gandolorin, I agree about the publishing world. But consider the fact that fewer and fewer people read; it's a shrinking market. Consider also that the publishing world underwent a huge restructuring in the 80s and 90s where they were bought out by bigger media conglomerates that needed, demanded much bigger profits. Here in the U.S. you have the phenomenon of the pop radio station. You'll hardly ever hear any good music; instead you hear formulaic, play-it-safe, lowest common denomenator stuff. This is the general formula throughout media. This has happened to classical music too. In the U.S. orchestras are dying off, and the ones that remain are becoming more and more like the Boston Pops, playing "easy listening" classical, even teaming up with pop stars. Alas, we do not live in a Belle Époque.

Consider also that Tolkien created a body of work that -- as we generally agree in my reading club -- went beyond any mere entertainment. He tapped into our genetic pre-Roman Euro-memories. He did it so well that even non-Europeans could see and feel their ancestral memories being tickled. I have to agree with Hercynian that Tolkien sets up a very strong longing and yearning in us. . .

. . . and of course no media executives can understand this. So when I watch the Disney "blockbuster" Frozen, I see all sorts of Nordic visuals and cues, but the story is simple and the whole Broadway musical style is regrettable. We get it, but they don't.

IMHO, the best book after Tolkien's is Hercynian's Marenmark. You can read it at runenberg.com
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: May 20, 2014 11:42
@ cirdaneth: do you remember the Tom & Jerry cartoon where Jerry receives a mail-order bulldog about his own size, Tom cracks up when he sees it - until, to the sound of a buzz-saw, the little monster "defoliates" Tom's left arm of fur?
Or for that matter the Tasmanian Devil in Warner Brothers (i.e Bugs B. & Daffy D.)? I'd just like to have a go at some people like those two hearties did, because that our world contains legions of Sarumans is something that many members of CoE would probably agree to. And that the 20th century also had the odd Sauron ...
@ parluggla: nothing you wrote surprises me, though specifics are new to me.
My experience with US TV goes back to 1966. A few of my favorite shows: Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, All In The Family, The Red Skelton Hour, The Munsters & The Addams Family (both the originals!!!), M*A*S*H, ...
Germany didn't get private TV channels until the mid-1980s (have some been making a deal about 30 years on the air? Don't know, I almost never watch them). But taking all media (including old-fashioned stuff like books and newspapers), I see a definite trend toward dumbing down the content - the more electronic the media, the more so (at times exponentially!).
What does that tell us about the media and those (more and more monopolies) controlling them? We can hardly be stupid enough for them, informed consumers are their utter horror. For ratings (or whatever corresponds to it) they will dumb things down far enough tho attract the lowest knuckles-scraping-on-the-ground-moron. And please pay attention: this is THEIR opinion of this last - uh - 0.1% or whatever - of customers. Not just that they are insulting the intelligence of the 99.9% of those they consider ABOVE this level, they are pretty certainly insulting that 0.1% as well.
And what countries love an uninformed populace?
I don't need to tell you.
What is wrong with Media Monopolies basically trying to do the same with us?
Image
parluggla
Council Member
Posts: 50
Send Message
Post
on: May 21, 2014 09:10
Yes, Gandolorin, the Media is big business. But then funny things do slip through. As a few people in my reading group note (as well as many others), Tolkien, Rowling, and many others of the "fantasy genre" seemed to have come out of nowhere starting roughthy at the millenium change. I'd say we're all here -- including this site -- because of the big bump in popularity the Jackson movies have given to Tolkien. Lots of chance, lots of unknown factors here. There was news a few months ago of how the CIA secretly promoted abstract expressionist art back in the 1950s. Why? Because they wanted the world to believe the USA was so open and free that even the most "out there" sorts of things could happen here. I doubt anything like that has happened with all the medieval-like fairytale-themed fantasy we've seen. I think it's been very organic and just came upon the world, similar to how Dylan and the Beatles and the whole late-60s music scene overwhelmed the highly structured and controlled pop music machine.
Gandolorin
Council Member
Posts: 24040
Send Message
Post
on: May 23, 2014 01:23
Well, JRRT REappeared on the bestseller lists after decades of being a big seller on the so-called back-list long-seller lists (like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and others in music). And the first Harry Potter book came out in 1997. J.K Rowling has named JRRT as one of her leading influences. But what I am very sure about is that the hype around LotR finally being filmed in its entirety (first shooting about 1998 (?) and the project being known before that) was the REAL initial spark for any real or imagined revival of (high) fantasy around the millennium.
Another little gem from Tom Shippey, from the foreword p. xvii of "Author of the Century":
"It is not long since I heard the commissioning editor of a major publishing house say, 'Only fantasy is mass-market. Everything else is cult-fiction.' (Reflective pause.) 'That includes mainstream'."
When you mention the Beatles, the whole subculture that sprang up around them and many other bands also discovered LotR at about that time in the US. The high school and especially college market was the driving force there, and the (often stuffed) suits at music or publishing companies were often overwhelmed then.
By now, of course, the suits have wised up and gotten suitable (! ) consultants and scouts closer to the action. Which could very well be the reason that we will have to wait long for "new Beatles" or someone to step into JRRT's huge shoes. They may be there, but are hiding in niches or something.
Image
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email