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Ireth_Telrunya
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Post How tall are dwarves?
on: August 05, 2014 09:14
Title says it all, really. How tall is the average dwarf in LOTR? Is there any significant difference between males and females? As I've been working on a new fanfic the question came up of whether the female human MC, who's between 5'4" and 5'5", could pass for a dwarf if need be. I doubt it'll have any bearing on the plot, but it'd be nice to know for future reference.
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Gandolorin
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on: August 05, 2014 11:36
Robert Foster in his "The Complete Guide To Middle-Earth" states that Dwarves are between 4'6" and 5' tall. So your female human MC would be noticeably taller when in the company of Dwarves, almost a foot taller than the smaller Dwarves. So for height, it depends on the company she keeps.

I see almost more of a problem (in the amount of disguise needed) in the stature of the Dwarves, who were stocky and heavily built. Strong, broad-shouldered, barrel-chested, with thick legs. Unless she is an Olympic weight-lifter, the disguise would need quite a bit of hot and uncomfortable padding, seriously impeding her agility.
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Ireth_Telrunya
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on: August 05, 2014 11:52
Ah, gotcha. The MC isn't in the company of dwarves at all; she winds up in Beleriand near the start of the First Age, before Men have crossed the Ered Luin from the eastern lands. One of her worries is having to explain what she is and why she's all alone when the elves of Eglarest find her; she considers trying to claim she's a dwarf, but rejects the notion due to her scrawny build and lack of beard. I just wanted to make sure about the height issue.
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Elthir
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on: August 05, 2014 02:50
I've been looking for some Tolkien written references myself, about this. In The Hobbit it's noted generally that 'hobbits are smaller than the bearded Dwarves'.

Then the Prologue to The Fellowship of the Ring notes: 'For they (hobbits) are a little people, smaller than Dwarves: less stout and stocky, that is, even when they are not actually much shorter.'

And there's a late note about Hobbits and Dwarves, regarding which we might get a general idea about Dwarves.

'... to this: Dwarves about 4 foot high at least. Hobbits were lighter in build, but not much shorter; their tallest men were 4 ft. but seldom taller. Though nowadays their survivors are seldom 3 feet high, in the days of the story they were taller which means that they usually exceeded 3 ft. and qualified for the name halfling. But the name halfling must have originated circa TA 1150, getting on for some 2,000 years [1868] before the War of the Ring, during which the dwindling of the Numenoreans had shown itself in stature as well as life-span. So that it referred to a height of full grown males of an average of, say, 3 ft. 5.'


So, erm... there's that

Hobbits were 'not much shorter' and they average 3 foot 5 or 3 foot 6, although Hobbits could reach 4 feet for the tall ones, and above that even, but seldom -- by which Bullroarer becomes notable, and ultimately Merry and Pippin, at some point in time after the ent-drinks.

So... how tall were Tolkien's Dwarves?

[Edited on 08/05/2014 by Elthir]
Gandolorin
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on: August 06, 2014 11:36
Besides Foster, whose book is © 1978, I also have a German lexicon from late 2001, larger (at 830 pages to Foster's 450). This author puts them at 130 to 140 centimeters, or 4'3" to 4'7". That is still above Hobbit-range, with only three recorded Hobbits, Bullroarer at 4'5", and ultimately Merry and Pippin at 4'6", topping the bottom height, and none reaching the top height.
4'3" to 4'7" averages out to 4'5", Foster's 4'6" to 5' at 4'9", those are not trivial differences in the height range we are talking about. Both would be noticeably taller than the Hobbit average of perhaps 3'6". 4'5" is 26% taller than 3'6", 4'9" is 36% taller. My gut feeling tells me that Foster is closer to the mark, but I have checked his source references without finding explicit references to height.
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pv
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on: August 09, 2014 09:45
Good to see you're still writing, Ireth! I don't think any woman, however short could pass for a dwarf - she'd be nowhere near muscular or hairy enough!
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Gandolorin
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on: August 10, 2014 10:00
pv said:I don't think any woman, however short could pass for a dwarf - she'd be nowhere near muscular or hairy enough!

I would exclude Dwarf-women (come to think of it, you may be doing so too with the term "a dwarf", the masculine often being used as shorthand for both male and female - like "mankind).

I've just tried to imagine what Pippin, a Hobbit tween, would experience when making an inappropriate comment to a female Dwarf - seeing galaxies and not just stars from the resulting slap in the face, most likely. And definitely not healthy enough to go on the quest as a result! Image
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pv
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on: August 11, 2014 01:18
I forgot that there were female dwarves!
Has Tolkien ever described them? Gimli clearly found Legolas prettier!
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pv
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on: August 11, 2014 01:38
Before all the lady dwarves here turn on me with their axes, I would like to say that

1. Maybe Gimli did not know how to appreciate a good thing when he saw one, and
2. Maybe Gimli and Legolas were "just friends."
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Gandolorin
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on: August 11, 2014 11:47
pv said:I forgot that there were female dwarves!
Has Tolkien ever described them? Gimli clearly found Legolas prettier!

Are you confusing Legolas with Galadriel?

The only thing I remember about their appearance seems to be that non-Dwarves would have great difficulties telling them apart. But then, they never were seen outside the Dwarf dwellings unless an entire dwelling left - for whatever reasons.

What JRRT did state that there were always fewer Dwarf women than men - an absolutely singular lopsided ratio between the sexes. Even more so when you consider that the Dwarf men were occasionally depleted badly as in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, fought Third Age 2793 to 2799. JRRT explained that the Dwarves were slow to recover from such losses, because if a Dwarf woman was not able to marry the Dwarf man she desired, she preferred not to marry at all - and some may have decided against marriage no matter what. So the famous or infamous stubborn streak was found in all Dwarves irrespective of sex.
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pv
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on: August 11, 2014 09:17
That's interesting! Where does he say all this? Did he really say that non dwarves would have great difficulties telling them apart?
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Gandolorin
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on: August 12, 2014 11:55
First there's Appendix A III, "Durin's Folk", page 1082 in volume three of my continuously paginated hardcover 2002 edition of LotR, respectively volume three, page 437 in my 1983 paperback;

the HoME volume 11, "The War of the Jewels", Part Two, chapter 13 titled "Concerning the Dwarves" (page 201 in my paperback);

the HoME volume 12, "The Peoples of Middle-Earth", Part Two, chapter X titled "Of Dwarves and Men" (page 295 in my hardcover).

That's all I could find looking at the contents pages.
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pv
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on: August 12, 2014 10:30
Thank you!
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Elthir
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on: August 14, 2014 08:00
Did he really say that non dwarves would have great difficulties telling them apart?


Yes as Gandolorin referred to, Tolkien noted that other races could not tell a male Dwarf from a female Dwarf, except possibly with respect to clothing -- except again that if the female Dwarves left their hidden places they also dressed like male Dwarves, so even that was out in a practical sense.

Two notable quotes are...

"They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the Dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart."

JRRT Appendix A

"For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womankind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls."

JRRT The Later Quenta Silmarillion*


I think Tolkien is quite limiting here. In the films Jackson has chosen to cast women with light beards or lesser looking 'beards' for his Dwarf-women, and he has given them different garb...

... I understand why, for a film. Not that the filmmakers had to put Dwarf-women on screen necessarily, but given the decision to do so, then I understand casting women in the role, or to those who hadn't read the books at least, they would simply appear to be Dwarf-men in different clothes.

But again Tolkien has left very little wiggle room here in my opinion: if we had a window into Middle-earth I think we should really be seeing what look like, sound like, walk like, male Dwarves even if they are female -- although as I say, the garb appears to be open if the female Dwarf is not on a journey.

Well 'we' as we are not Dwarves

__________

*this description does not appear in a revised section of Quenta Silmarillion about the Dwarves, nor the edited version published in 1977 -- I think it was removed not because it was 'untrue' but that Tolkien had already decided that this information should hail from Gimli, as in Appendix A.

Thus some details became known in a relatively 'late' context: Gimli of the Third Age ultimately revealing some inside information, so to speak.

[Edited on 08/14/2014 by Elthir]
pv
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on: August 14, 2014 11:08
That's very interesting - thank you!
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