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Nordor
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Post Just Fade Away
on: December 03, 2014 08:08
Relative to Tolkien's concept that the spirit of elves eventually eroded the body. My question: Did going to Valinor arrest this? Or would elves of The Undying Lands still fade? Would fading be a natural process regardless of location?

I apologize if this topic has been gone over before.
Gandolorin
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on: December 05, 2014 12:27
I think fading would be a natural process in Middle-Earth after the first rising of the sun. In Valinor it would be arrested, at the very least slowed to near imperceptibility, due to the effect that the presence of the Valar there had. And with the end of the War of the Ring, the age of the rule of men had irrevocably arrived, the Elves fading before them - however fading may be construed.
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Eruwestiel_Evensong
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on: December 05, 2014 05:32
This is part of the article "The Healing Arts of Middle Earth" found here: http://tinw.hubpages.com/hub/lotr-healing

"But beside all this Aman is called also the Blessed Realm, and in this was found its blessedness: in health and joy. For in Aman no creatures suffered any sickness or disorder of their natures; nor was there any decay or ageing more swift than the slow ageing of Arda itself. So that all things coming at last to fullness of form and virtue remained in that state, blissfully, ageing and wearying of their life and being no swifter than the Valar themselves. And this blessing also was granted to the Eldar.

On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval fear. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their fear, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fea, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it. (Myths Transformed XI, Morgoth's Ring)

The Elves' healing powers led them to desire to preserve perishable things. Sometimes they went too far with this... the Elfstone and Rings of Power were examples.

In the first we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming – even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts. ~ (Letters 131)"

It seems to second what Gandolorin said.
"And I dreamed of seas and ships, and of waves crashing on the shore in the twilight of the world..." ~Song, member of the Realm of Ulmo
cirdaneth
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on: December 06, 2014 12:34
Thank you Eruwestiel! I was about to post the first quote myself. The concept of existence in Aman is complex and I don't think Tolkien ever quite resolved the problems of reconstitution/reincarnation for elves who had been in the Halls of Mandos. Those who 'sailed' in good health were to remain in bliss to the end of time. Those who remained in Middle Earth would fade slowly, becoming transparent and eventually invisible.
Gandolorin
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on: December 06, 2014 01:39
cirdaneth said:...Those who remained in Middle Earth would fade slowly, becoming transparent and eventually invisible.

But do we know this? No. JRRT never brought vast tracts of his Mythology to final (Canon, as it were) conclusions. But that he had these vast (unfinished) vistas lurking on the edges of LoTR was perhaps its never-to-be-copied (because no other author had such background material) singularity. It may be what caused him to despair of publishing the Silmarillion. There was nothing behind the Ainulindalë, for example. Had JRRT been given the lifespan of Aragorn (210 years), I still believe he would not have been able to get all of his mythology into what he himself would accept as a publishable Canon. Too much of a niggler he was, by his own admission.
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Eruwestiel_Evensong
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on: December 06, 2014 02:18
This may or may not be of much help, but here is part of the quote I shared above again.

"Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fea, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it. (Myths Transformed XI, Morgoth's Ring)"

So it does appear that the spirit consumed the body, which would probably result in the body becoming transparent and then invisible. But I will not be dogmatic about any of this, as I am by no means on expert on Middle Earth lore.
"And I dreamed of seas and ships, and of waves crashing on the shore in the twilight of the world..." ~Song, member of the Realm of Ulmo
cirdaneth
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on: December 07, 2014 12:30
Thanks again Eruwestiel. This comes from the Essay on Aman which was intended as a prelude to Athrabeth Finrod ar Andreth. Written circa 1959.

Elthir
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on: December 08, 2014 04:12
I think the end of the 'Aman' text adds to the part already posted...

"... to fade, until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it."

[new part, with respect to this thread anyway]

"But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hroar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension."

Aman, JRRT, Morgoth's Ring


Although granted this may echo the already posted: "... all things coming at last to fullness of form and virtue remained in that state, blissfully ageing and wearying of their life and being no swifter than the Valar themselves. And this blessing was also granted to the Eldar..."

And about the invisbility question:

"... The Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully."

JRRT, Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, Morgoth's Ring [incidentally, there is a way for some Men to see them better than dimly and fitfully, in any case -- Elthir]

"They eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hroar, but only in the memory of the fea of its bodily form, and its desire for it; and therefore not dependant for mere existence upon the material of Arda."

JRRT, author's note 7 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth


[Edited on 12/09/2014 by Elthir]
Elthir
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on: December 08, 2014 04:59
Gandolorin said: But do we know this? No. JRRT never brought vast tracts of his Mythology to final (Canon, as it were) conclusions. [... cut for brevity...] Had JRRT been given the lifespan of Aragorn (210 years), I still believe he would not have been able to get all of his mythology into what he himself would accept as a publishable Canon. Too much of a niggler he was, by his own admission.


I hear what you're saying (or think I do), but in another sense we know this quite well, as Tolkien had his Elves fading in the body from his early days as a writer (The Book of Lost Tales) to his old age. JRRT is quite consistent that his Quendi will fade in the body if they remain in 'our' world, even if he appears to alter the details at points over the years.

And I think this concept was always important to JRRT: the Eldar may have left, but not all Elves,and there are still places today that have an Elvish feel, or air... and for those with keen sight, or the right attitude, a true Elf-friend maybe...

... they may be granted a vision of their true bodies!

I can't remember if Tolkien published even the suggestion of Elven faded bodies (although why not hint at this with Cirdan I wonder). But again if we think of the many things Tolkien didn't actually publish, the general idea of physically faded Elves seems pretty consistent anyway.

[Edited on 12/09/2014 by Elthir]
Eruwestiel_Evensong
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on: December 08, 2014 05:25
Elthir, that was an excellent write-up! Thank you!
"And I dreamed of seas and ships, and of waves crashing on the shore in the twilight of the world..." ~Song, member of the Realm of Ulmo
Elthir
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on: December 08, 2014 05:33
Thanks! And I don't or didn't mean to imply that that last part 'should' have been added by anyone... it just gave me something to post!

And to help support the point you already made quite well
Gandolorin
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on: December 08, 2014 05:42
True, but again I feel I must belabor the "Canon". And also the fact (stated in "Letters" somewhere, I believe) that he had regretted some of his earlier poems, "Goblin Feet" comes especially to mind. Where between "Tinker-belle" (the type of representations of his Elves which he later loathed) and Elladan and Elrohir's remaining in Middle-Earth after Elrond left would we land?

He was also contemplating a round-earth-from-the-beginning rewrite (because the Elves could not be ignorant of what in his time had become accepted knowledge in Astronomy?)

Would we be more satisfied with a "scientifically correct" Middle-Earth?
This is a "fairy-tale" for adults who still have the ability for the "suspension of disbelief." Those who enjoy an unparalleled skill of the English language. No one else has come close.

[Edited on 12/09/2014 by Gandolorin]
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Elthir
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on: December 09, 2014 07:22
True, but again I feel I must belabor the "Canon".


I'm on board with that generally, as 'canon' to me means the works Tolkien published. Some seem to think that that then means 'everything else' is of no account for me, which is not how I view things, but my distinction maybe (I'm guessing) speaks to part of what you're saying here.

He was also contemplating a round-earth-from-the-beginning rewrite (because the Elves could not be ignorant of what in his time had become accepted knowledge in Astronomy?) Would we be more satisfied with a "scientifically correct" Middle-Earth? This is a "fairy-tale" for adults who still have the ability for the "suspension of disbelief." Those who enjoy an unparalleled skill of the English language. No one else has come close.


Here again I think Tolkien answered this question rather consistently, at least in late writings. Many post about the fact that he indulged in the question but I strongly believe Tolkien resolved this notable problem by keeping Flat World/Sun-from-a-Tree myths as Mannish legends mixed with Elvish tales.

The Drowning of Anadûne (Mannish tradition with purposed various confusions, while the Elves of the West yet taught that the World was always round) was in my opinion 'ratified' by Tolkien in the 1960s, and was meant to stand alongside the mixed version (Elvish and Mannish) Akallabêth.

Thus, along with prefatory explanations of source or authorship, which I believe was sure to be part of Tolkien's Silmarillion (and which Christopher Tolkien regretted not doing in some measure for the 1977 Silmarillion), one text would be read in light of the other.

I don't believe a variant Silmarillion was meant to stand alongside another however, but that shorter works like the Elvish legend of the Awakening could contrast with the mixed Silmarillion (regarding the existence of the Sun) -- or perhaps the Elvish version of the death of Amros (Feanor's youngest child), as part of an Appendix.

This is part of why I'm not very on board with the notion, that some at least seem to hold, that accepting draft variations as 'internal' variations within the fictional Red Book, makes the legendarium more real, more like real world sources that conflict.

In a way I'm very on board with that! As that's the point I would say, or part of it, but to my mind Tolkien was already going there using his own sense of artistic measure, and wasn't necessarily going there by merely changing his mind -- in other words, if we readers add this portion of inconsistency, that radically alters the measure of Tolkien 'the cook'.

And I know that none of this really speaks to your point, but that said I kind of disagree that Tolkien was such a niggler of details and a mind changer -- which I think he was -- that he couldn't have finished a Silmarillion. But that's a complex question, and I've blathered on enough for today...

... wait... :consider, pause: ... okay yes I think I'm done blathering for now!

Hmm, looking back I wandered there

[Edited on 12/09/2014 by Elthir]
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